Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life.

[Fordiesel69]

As many of you know, the FWD / AWD engine config has the water pump internally driven off the timing system. When the pump fails, it spews coolant into the oil and destroys the engine if not caught in time. I am fully versed and have read every article on the causes, failures, fixes, and the political views of using such a design. I'd like to keep this thread strictly on the coolant end of the equation, and any preventative measures / additives.

My questions are as follows:
2013 Ford Taurus Police Interceptor Sedan with 175,000 miles, 322 Idle Hours ( and confirmed it was pure highway use for liquor enforcement) Not traffic / criminal enforcement).

1.) At this mileage, what should I do from a coolant standpoint to prolong the life of the water pump?

2.) Would it hurt to simply drain the existing unknown ford specialty orange coolant out, and replace with the same coolant to at least partially restore the additive pack?

 

[Chris142]

The coolant does not touch any part of the water pump. Other than the impeller. Only when a seal fails does coolant get into the bearings then leak out. There is nothing you can do to prolong the pumps life.

 

[ford46guy]

I looked at a lincon MK? with that high mileage, had that engine (or the 3.7). Dealer said it isn't that common but if it happens it happens. According to him and his techs nothing can prevent it. He had the old part from one he just repaired, and it had lots of play in the shaft.
If any coolant came in contact with the bearings that get play that would be a problem in itself.

He said MAYBE a coolant level sensor in the bottle (ironic it don't have one, some cars have sensors for the washer fluid!) but he said said it usually happens catastrophically on the highway and there is nothing you can do. Maybe install a float switch.

If you are that worried maybe PM the part.

 

[Snagglefoot]

With that many miles, your manual suggests changing every three years with Ford Orange coolant. I suppose the guys above are correct, so I would do a regular weekly check of your coolant jug with the fluid cold. If you see any lowering you might have to act on it.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Here is a video from Makuloco for those unfamiliar with the problem. (I'm sure the OP has seen it). One thing interesting is there is a double O ring with a weep channel that is supposed to take the fluid back to the block. I imagine a bitogger can be more aware of things rather than the every day motorist, so maybe watch for the weep. Makuloco mentioned it leads back to the block and exits by the alternator. After he pulls the alternator you can clearly see the weep path machined in the block. Soooo, inspect near the alternator for any signs of a weeping coolant. Yes, I have heard of sudden catastrophic failures of the bearing dumping the coolant into the pan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3-NOGZL8ms

 

[rideahorse]

Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.

 

[dbias]

I've been looking and researching for a used car after the Jetta was totaled and ran across a really good deal on a ford Taurus. Looked at the engine problems and couldn't believe the internal water pump setup. That is stupid, stupid, stupid. No way no how will I buy a vehicle with this design.

 

[dogememe]

Originally Posted by rideahorse
Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.


Uh... I don't think that's quite how that works. Just because one unit made it to 235K using 15w-40 doesn't mean that is going to prevent the issue in all of these vehicles/engines.

 

[cb_13]

If you're that concerned you could just replace the water pump at 100k. $1600 for the job on that engine is comparable to the $1500 my wife and I were quoted for timing belt on a Honda Odyssey with a 3.5.

 

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by cb_13
If you're that concerned you could just replace the water pump at 100k. $1600 for the job on that engine is comparable to the $1500 my wife and I were quoted for timing belt on a Honda Odyssey with a 3.5.

Right On ! this car is waay overdue for a water pump, timing chain replacement, especially if on xtended OCIs

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Pelican
Right On ! this car is waay overdue for a water pump, timing chain replacement, especially if on xtended OCIs

So is a chain considered a scheduled replacement part? I've never replaced the chain in my old ECHO, and the water pump I changed at about 280K miles just because I thought nearly 20 years was long enough.

 

[nthach]

It's an engineering flaw - not so much with the chain-driven water pump as Nissan, Subaru and GM are also using them. It's how Ford had to package the water pump for the engine to fit in a transverse application and while there is a double-groove gasket and a weep channel to route coolant away from the crankcase it still wasn't enough.

Only thing you can do is a keep a hawk's eye on coolant and oil levels and plan on PM replacing the pump if you're paranoid. It seems like it's doable in some models without dropping the engine.

 

[Snagglefoot]

It brings us to the question: Just how long should the accessories last? Only 2 % of vehicles are on the road past 200,000 miles. I've heard from other sources that it is 4%, so I'll give folks the benefit of the doubt and call it 5%. So what's an "early failure" ? Most cars leave their original owner at 6 years or under. That might average out to 120,000 miles. ( alternate data is welcome.)

I wonder what is the average mileage is when that 3.5/3.7 water pump piles up. The OP's water pump made it to 175,000 miles. It's too bad it costs so much to repair but we all know the manufacturers do not support the 2nd owner.

 

[cb_13]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Pelican
Right On ! this car is waay overdue for a water pump, timing chain replacement, especially if on xtended OCIs

So is a chain considered a scheduled replacement part? I've never replaced the chain in my old ECHO, and the water pump I changed at about 280K miles just because I thought nearly 20 years was long enough.


No it is not. A timing chain is considered a lifetime component. I personally have seen the water pumps on these fail anywhere from 120k-300k miles and read reports of ones failing much sooner. My wife has a 13 Edge with the 3.7 and we don't lose any sleep over the issue. It's not that common but it can certainly be catastrophic if not caught soon enough.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I found a used 2013 Taurus on Auto in Erie, Pa ( the OP's listed address), for $8,000. I guess you just assume it's going to need $1800 for a water pump and chain and price your offer accordingly or avoid entirely.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted by rideahorse
Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.


Not sure I'm buying what you are selling..

you say 15w40 is the cure, but you had to put a waterpump in it.. and your chains arent stretched... so seems confusing/totally contradictory.

 

[wdn]

How are you telling a guy who lives directly on Lake Erie to be putting 15W40 tractor oil in his car engine, in February? That is completely nuts. The car is spec'ed for a 5W-20. OP is not having timing chain issues either he is asking about replacing the Ford coolant, to possibly extend its life, hence the cooling forum. Bearings and seals wear out pumps not the timing chain, it was just Ford's dumb design to locate it so it's major surgery to get at it. There is an owner class action lawsuit against for because it can cost thousands to replace a $200 pump.

 

[KGMtech]

I did this job on my 2009 Flex last May, it was done as a preemptive repair, there was no signs of coolant loss or signals of impending doom. This car had 206,000 kilometers at the time of the work.

As to other cooling system maintenance, I had the coolant changed at 137,000 kilometers - just because I felt it was time, done at the dealer because they had a special on at the time. The Flex has always had a religious attention to maintenance, so if the WP longevity is influenced by lack of oil changes, or coolant flushes, this would not be my situation.

For the 3.5 V6 normally aspirated, there is a passage way inside the engine casting behind the WP that directs any coolant seepage past the 1st O-ring to either a small weep hole that dumps above the alternator, and another 2nd weep hole that dumps into the intake manifold valley - back side of timing chain area. On my Flex, both these areas were dry and clean, no stains of green.

Regarding the original WP, on removal I think there was a slight residue of green in the passage way of the pump casting that leads to the alternator drip area, but I might be wrong, when the pump comes off there is some spillage, hard to say if this was fresh spill from removing the WP or residue of a very small seepage. The old WP seemed to have no play axially or radially, it told me that I might have waited another 50,000 kilometers or it could have gone in 20,000 ??? who knows.

In addition to the WP, I did the 3 chains, the crank sprocket, all chain guides,primary chain tensioner, crank seal, valve cover gaskets, thermostat, oil & filter, Ford Specialty Green Coolant and distilled water. All Ford parts. It took an honest 29 hours start to finish. I include the time it took me to plan the placement of the timing cover in a way that would not smear the special Ford RTV sealant that was applied to the timing case cover. That cover is BIG and not easy to manipulate without hitting critical surfaces. I did not remove any AC pressure lines, this would have given a bit more room, but I was able to bungee cord them away without problem.

I know I could have waited longer to do this work, but I had the time, the weather was great and I was ready for the task. YMMV. The Flex drives on today with about 222,000 KM and no leaks of oil or coolant.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Originally Posted by wdn
Bearings and seals wear out pumps not the timing chain, it was just Ford's dumb design to locate it so it's major surgery to get at it. There is an owner class action lawsuit against for because it can cost thousands to replace a $200 pump.


I hope they get some success, but really, the defense lawyers will point out most of these pumps provide service for a goodly amount of time. I would like to see what is considered a good long service in the eyes of the law. For the 2nd or subsequent owners I think the judge will tell the plaintiffs to pound sand.

 

[dblshock]

I like to look at the Flex, but jezus god what a mess.