Synthetic Oils With Lowest VII's ?

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I'm looking at Magnatec 5w30 here, its CCV is around 6000 compared to Amsoil ASL 5w30's 3900 or so.

What am I missing, I don't see anything spectacular going by its PDS - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/3AC9C514D03B15F580258479006C276B/$File/BPXE-9UE8M3.pdf

Thx

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I recall Amsoil ATM = no VII

Your classic PAO real synthetic oil.

I would add some magnatec to it to make it better

I have a French PAO in the VW.

PAO aint all that alone, it got "issues".

A Bit of Magnatec made it stunning

What magic elixir is in that moss-green bottle ? !
 
The coldest that particular vehicle has seen was a bit below -40 ambient; as I recall it had ASL 5w30 at that time.

Started up without a fuss, except for a few seconds of PS pump squeal.

From last year, and going forward, the coldest it will see is -12f or so, perhaps for 7 or 8 days a winter.

I have a couple cases of 10w30 Signature Series ATM left, I reckon I'll use it on that vehicle come it's annual Spring oil change.

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by ofelas
Judging by the image posted by "Pat in Speedway" a few above, I am guessing one would have no issues running Amsoil's ATM Signature Series 10w30 - in the North East/Eastern Canada as a year round fill, in lieu of a spec'd 5w30.

Depending on the starting temperature. Here in Northern Wisconsin where it can and does get down to -30F, no.
 
Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't buy into this high V! means junk oil. From what I've read high VI indicated better base oil (PAO).
 
*Not to get off topic , here in North Georgia I can run 10W30 10 months out of the year (I prefer a 5W if my morning temps will see temps in the teens ) ... My only concern with a 10W30 synthetic is the lack of D1 / Gen 2 certification which makes me concerned I might receive a lesser ability oil than the 5W30 D1 / Gen 2 of the same brand ?
 
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Not to get off topic , here in North Georgia I can run 10W30 10 months out of the year (I prefer a 5W if my morning temps will see temps in the teens ) ... My only concern with a 10W30 synthetic is the lack of D1 / Gen 2 certification which makes me concerned I might receive a lesser ability oil than the 5W30 D1 / Gen 2 of the same brand ?


In today's lean manufacturing and consolidated process environment, Do you think that it would be cost effective to have a different additive package in a 10w30 than the same brand 5w30 that has the D1/gen 2 ?

I don't. The only thing I could see that is different is the blend of base oil and VII rate.
10w30 cannot by definition get Dexos. It doesn't mean it doesn't get the same formulation. Could be overly optimistic thinking, but why have more formulations being blended than necessary?

Metallic adds usually look identical on the PDS. https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=518483&docFormat=PDF
 
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Originally Posted by ka9mnx
Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't buy into this high V! means junk oil. From what I've read high VI indicated better base oil (PAO).


Only to a point. PAO has a higher VI than most lower group bases, but once you get well above the VI of the base oil, that increase is being provided by VII. A VII-free 10w-30 blended with PAO won't have a wickedly high VI for example. Ravenol DXG 5w-30 has a VI of 160 and is PAO-based. That's a pretty low VI and, without going through the effort of doing the calculations, should point to a low VII content.
 
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Not to get off topic , here in North Georgia I can run 10W30 10 months out of the year (I prefer a 5W if my morning temps will see temps in the teens ) ... My only concern with a 10W30 synthetic is the lack of D1 / Gen 2 certification which makes me concerned I might receive a lesser ability oil than the 5W30 D1 / Gen 2 of the same brand ?


In today's lean manufacturing and consolidated process environment, Do you think that it would be cost effective to have a different additive package in a 10w30 than the same brand 5w30 that has the D1/gen 2 ?

I don't. The only thing I could see that is different is the blend of base oil and VII rate.
10w30 cannot by definition get Dexos.

Metallic adds usually look identical on the PDS. https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=518483&docFormat=PDF



No, but they'll probably use a cheaper base oil because they can.
 
Originally Posted by ofelas
I'm looking at Magnatec 5w30 here, its CCV is around 6000 compared to Amsoil ASL 5w30's 3900 or so.

What am I missing, I don't see anything spectacular going by its PDS - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/3AC9C514D03B15F580258479006C276B/$File/BPXE-9UE8M3.pdf

Thx

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I recall Amsoil ATM = no VII

Your classic PAO real synthetic oil.

I would add some magnatec to it to make it better

I have a French PAO in the VW.

PAO aint all that alone, it got "issues".

A Bit of Magnatec made it stunning

What magic elixir is in that moss-green bottle ? !





It makes it better by adding some sort of magic lubricity and velvety smoothness.
I don't know what they put in that stuff, but it makes a great "additive" to good oils to make them outstanding
from the drivers's seat.

Looking at 2 or 3 specs has never described how and oil runs in an engine.

The best Subaru FB20 UOA ran Valvoline Advanced 0W20 and a cup of Magnatec 5W20.

I didnt do it on purpose, other than I needed some top up oil, had some Maggy lying around.
Drove the car and said "whoa!" what's going on here. Same thing with my VW with a perfect, pricey, PAO lube.
Car didn't quite run right added some 5W30 magnatec lying around and it ran - and runs - outstanding..

Too much specsmanship and not enough feel, listen and touch here.

You know where this got us in the audio world in the 70's and 80's
GARBAGE un-listenable sound from transistor amps that were shooting for 0.005% THD and good ad copy...

-Ken
 
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Correct. 10w-30 cannot meet fuel economy specs to be d1/G2. Also, GM doesn't want users using 10w-30 because it's "old school".
 
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Gokhan
In summary: For wear and deposit control, you want a low VI and low VII content straight grade SAE30 and for fuel economy, you want a high VI and high VII content straight grade SAE20.

There, fixed it for you...
coffee2.gif
(ppl in cold climes, like myself, are SOL..or need to "suck it up" and use a multi grade w/VM's)

For fuel economy you want a ultra-high-VI SAE 0W-20, not a monograde SAE 20.

Yes, a SAE 30 or SAE 40 would be good for wear control if temperatures allow (unlikely for most people). SAE 40 is the only grade that works for two-cycle diesel engines -- even SAE 15W-40 doesn't work in that case. However, you won't find a good monograde for gasoline engines these days; so, it's a moot issue. If wear is a problem, you can replace SAE 30 with a good 5W-40 or 15W-40 in a gasoline engine, and you get a boost in HTHS from the VII as well.
 
* 10w30 cannot by definition get Dexos. It doesn't mean it doesn't get the same formulation" ... This would be my hope / thinking as well !
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Not to get off topic , here in North Georgia I can run 10W30 10 months out of the year (I prefer a 5W if my morning temps will see temps in the teens ) ... My only concern with a 10W30 synthetic is the lack of D1 / Gen 2 certification which makes me concerned I might receive a lesser ability oil than the 5W30 D1 / Gen 2 of the same brand ?


In today's lean manufacturing and consolidated process environment, Do you think that it would be cost effective to have a different additive package in a 10w30 than the same brand 5w30 that has the D1/gen 2 ?

I don't. The only thing I could see that is different is the blend of base oil and VII rate.
10w30 cannot by definition get Dexos. It doesn't mean it doesn't get the same formulation. Could be overly optimistic thinking, but why have more formulations being blended than necessary?

Metallic adds usually look identical on the PDS. https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=518483&docFormat=PDF
 
Castrol EDGE 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.7
VI 159

Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.4
VI 170

*So , with the exception of any "magic" added ingredients in the 5W30 Magnatec - the EDGE 5W30 would appear to have the lower VII's between the two formulations ?
 
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Castrol EDGE 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.7
VI 159

Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.4
VI 170

*So , with the exception of any "magic" added ingredients in the 5W30 Magnatec - the EDGE 5W30 would appear to have the lower VII's between the two formulations ?


Yup, that's likely a correct assumption. The Edge uses a higher VI base and less VII, whilst the Magnatec likely uses a lower VI, less viscous and less expensive base and more VII.
 
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Gokhan : How would Castrol EDGE 5W30 and Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (two more popular synthetics) fair in % VII ?

Castrol Edge 5W-30 and Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 both have 7% VII, which is very high for a 5W-30.

Unlike the competitors Castrol uses the cheapest Group III base stocks they can find to formulate their US-marketed synthetic oils. They don't use Group III+ or GTL. Even Super Tech uses higher-quality base stocks in some of their oils.

However, Noack is impressive at 10.0%, but this is only because they used very thick Group III base stocks that barely passed the CCS test. Nevertheless, this doesn't translate into a thick base oil at 150 C; so, it doesn't help you. Base-oil viscosity at 150 C is 2.0 cP, which is more like what you would see in a typical 0W-20. This is because of the cheap Group III base stocks used -- they have a low viscosity index (VI) before the VII is added. Lower Noack is not thanks to a high-quality base oil but the borderline CCS performance.

Surprisingly Castrol has published the entire specs for the Castrol Edge US/Edge Professional 5W-30 dexos1 Gen 2:

EDGE Professional 5W-30
29 Mar 2018

Typical Characteristics

Name Method Units Typical values

Density @ 15C, Relative ASTM D4052 g/ml 0.856
Appearance Visual - Clear & Bright
Viscosity, Kinematic 100C ASTM D445 mm²/s 10.7
Viscosity, CCS -30C ASTM D5293 mPa.s (cP) 5700
Pour Point ASTM D97 °C -39
Viscosity, MRV / Yield Stress -35C (5W) ASTM D4684 mPa.s (cP) 35000
Viscosity, Kinematic 40C ASTM D445 mm²/s 62.64
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 159
Noack Volatility ASTM D5800 % Loss 10.0
Viscosity, HTHS 150C ASTM D4683 cP 3.04
Gelation Index ASTM D5133 - Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 220

Product Performance Claims

ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5
API SN
ILSAC GF-5
GM dexos1â„¢ Gen 2
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Castrol EDGE 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.7
VI 159

Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.4
VI 170

*So , with the exception of any "magic" added ingredients in the 5W30 Magnatec - the EDGE 5W30 would appear to have the lower VII's between the two formulations ?
Yup, that's likely a correct assumption. The Edge uses a higher VI base and less VII, whilst the Magnatec likely uses a lower VI, less viscous and less expensive base and more VII.

LOL. No!
laugh.gif


Look at the numbers. KV40 and KV100 are practically the same between the two.

It's typical Castrol. They made errors in their product data sheets. The actual VI is 159 and 162 for Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 and Castrol Edge US 5W-30, respectively; so, it's practically the same for both.

Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 and Castrol Edge US 5W-30 seem to be very similar oils if not identical.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Castrol EDGE 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.7
VI 159

Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (USA) :
cSt K @ 100 degrees C. 10.4
VI 170

*So , with the exception of any "magic" added ingredients in the 5W30 Magnatec - the EDGE 5W30 would appear to have the lower VII's between the two formulations ?
Yup, that's likely a correct assumption. The Edge uses a higher VI base and less VII, whilst the Magnatec likely uses a lower VI, less viscous and less expensive base and more VII.

LOL. No!
laugh.gif


Look at the numbers. KV40 and KV100 are practically the same between the two.

It's typical Castrol. They made errors in their product data sheets. The actual VI is 159 and 162 for Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 and Castrol Edge US 5W-30, respectively; so, it's practically the same for both.

Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 and Castrol Edge US 5W-30 seem to be very similar oils if not identical.


I was just going by what was posted with respect to the VI being 170 and similar KV100, didn't bother to gather any other information. If that VI figure is wrong, then yeah, it tosses that whole assumption out the window.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Here is the updated VII content (VII column) and base-oil viscosity at 150 C (BO DV150 column) table:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oIYJP_5lgdt9l-_5n_ftKL5ScaaeY0MErFRothajZos/edit?usp=sharing


So looks like Valvoline has the least VII according to the spreadsheet.

Although on BITOG, majority of the people would say a high PAO based oil such as Mobil 1 EP/AP would be a better oil, and now Valvoline is Grp III/GTL based with lower VII, does this makes Valvoline better?
 
Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Here is the updated VII content (VII column) and base-oil viscosity at 150 C (BO DV150 column) table:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oIYJP_5lgdt9l-_5n_ftKL5ScaaeY0MErFRothajZos/edit?usp=sharing
So looks like Valvoline has the least VII according to the spreadsheet.

Although on BITOG, majority of the people would say a high PAO based oil such as Mobil 1 EP/AP would be a better oil, and now Valvoline is Grp III/GTL based with lower VII, does this makes Valvoline better?

It's impossible to say. We can't say which oil is better based entirely on the HTHS viscosity, base-oil viscosity at 150 C (BO DV150), and VII content. The quality of the base-oil and additive package used, as well as the type and quality of the VII used, also matter, to say the least.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Here is the updated VII content (VII column) and base-oil viscosity at 150 C (BO DV150 column) table:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oIYJP_5lgdt9l-_5n_ftKL5ScaaeY0MErFRothajZos/edit?usp=sharing


Curious, would you be willing to add the Ravenol 5w-30's and 0w-40 to that sheet?

1. Ravenol DXG 5w-30:
Density: 0.846
HTHS: 3.1
KV100: 10.7
KV40: 63.3
I get 4.44%

2. Ravenol VMP 5w-30:
Density: 0.853
HTHS: 3.6
KV100: 11.5
KV40: 68.2
I get 0.92%

3. Ravenol SSL 0w-40:
Density: 0.840
HTHS: 3.7
KV100: 13.25
KV40: 74.4
I get: 5.99%
 
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