VII are a lot different (better) than they were 25 years ago. Even 10 years ago.
Synthetic Oils With Lowest VII's ?
- Thread starter ChrisD46
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Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Research may indicate that higher VII's in engine oils can lead to an increase in engine deposits (more critical in GDI and Turbo engines) .
The above said , which oils below have the lower VII's in their oil make up / formula ?
1. Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W30
2. Mobil 1 5W30
3. Pennzoil Platinum 5W30
4. Castrol EDGE 5W30
5 .QSUD 5W30
*I picked readily available synthetic oils all with D1 / Gen 2 , SN+ ratings .
I wouldn't overly concern myself with just vii
Latest ILSAC and Dexos spec oils are required to pass TEOST and high temp deposits gram mass.
The easy path - for me at least - is to purchase a majority PAO or Di-ester quality lubricant.
__________
The constraints of ILSAC and the 5w multi-grade requirements
will pretty much determine the VII load.
You could assume any oil using GTL bases, which are plentiful now
or PAO will provide a good inherent viscosity index (>140) before VM up-treat
and will produce a very low ASTMD5800 boil off;
That is what I would look for as clues.
___________
some pqia data:
ex (1) M1 AP 5W30 : 8.5% (pqia data a.2018) with a viscosity index of only 160.
ex (2) M1 5W30 : 10.1% (pqiq data ca. 2013) with a viscosity index of 170
ex (3) Amazon Basics (Warren Dist) : 11.4% (pqiq data ca. 2019) with a viscosity index of 170
ex (4) Pennzoil Platinum : 9.1% (pqiq data ca. 2014) with a viscosity index of 171
M1AP 1st place, PP 2nd place
________
You could also do the casual stainless steel frying pan test outside on your grille side burner
to see what is left for deposits under coking condition, and do the pan swirl during boil off to let the
detergents do their job.
Just don't breath the fumes or do this inside!
As an aside I found at the last run Valvoline Advanced 5w30 to be superior.
At least with that particular batch's base oil - this can and will change batch to batch.
Oils are like fine wines, you find a good "vintage" , buy a couple cases!
- Ken
Research may indicate that higher VII's in engine oils can lead to an increase in engine deposits (more critical in GDI and Turbo engines) .
The above said , which oils below have the lower VII's in their oil make up / formula ?
1. Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W30
2. Mobil 1 5W30
3. Pennzoil Platinum 5W30
4. Castrol EDGE 5W30
5 .QSUD 5W30
*I picked readily available synthetic oils all with D1 / Gen 2 , SN+ ratings .
I wouldn't overly concern myself with just vii
Latest ILSAC and Dexos spec oils are required to pass TEOST and high temp deposits gram mass.
The easy path - for me at least - is to purchase a majority PAO or Di-ester quality lubricant.
__________
The constraints of ILSAC and the 5w multi-grade requirements
will pretty much determine the VII load.
You could assume any oil using GTL bases, which are plentiful now
or PAO will provide a good inherent viscosity index (>140) before VM up-treat
and will produce a very low ASTMD5800 boil off;
That is what I would look for as clues.
___________
some pqia data:
ex (1) M1 AP 5W30 : 8.5% (pqia data a.2018) with a viscosity index of only 160.
ex (2) M1 5W30 : 10.1% (pqiq data ca. 2013) with a viscosity index of 170
ex (3) Amazon Basics (Warren Dist) : 11.4% (pqiq data ca. 2019) with a viscosity index of 170
ex (4) Pennzoil Platinum : 9.1% (pqiq data ca. 2014) with a viscosity index of 171
M1AP 1st place, PP 2nd place
________
You could also do the casual stainless steel frying pan test outside on your grille side burner
to see what is left for deposits under coking condition, and do the pan swirl during boil off to let the
detergents do their job.
Just don't breath the fumes or do this inside!
As an aside I found at the last run Valvoline Advanced 5w30 to be superior.
At least with that particular batch's base oil - this can and will change batch to batch.
Oils are like fine wines, you find a good "vintage" , buy a couple cases!
- Ken
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Good point about the volatility tests. ASTM D5800.
It looks as though PQIA.org is providing the volatility ASTM D5800 results. I hope this is only temporary?
Thank you Gokhan for linking in the previous discussions from BITOG. I think I am coming to a better understanding how to determine which oils are likely to have fewer VII's.
It looks as though PQIA.org is providing the volatility ASTM D5800 results. I hope this is only temporary?
Thank you Gokhan for linking in the previous discussions from BITOG. I think I am coming to a better understanding how to determine which oils are likely to have fewer VII's.
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
OK, fun adventure for a Sunday morning. I'll contribute info on QSUD. One anomalous thing is the kinematic viscosity at 100 C is actually higher with the 5W30 than with the 10W30. How that happened I'm not sure. (Typo?). Here you go. 5W30 first.
What's even weirder is the cst@100 for the QSUD 5w20 is way-way down to around 8.7. Seems strange that....
5w30 is 11.6
5w20 is 8.7
I dont understand the strangeness. Actually a KV100 of 8.7 is high for a 5w20
the range for a SAE20 grade oil is 5.6 > 9.2cSt
The MOTUL Synthetic in my VW is 7.8cSt.
With the introduction of 16 weight oils isn't the "official" bottom end of 20 weight viscosity 6.9 cSt?
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
OK, fun adventure for a Sunday morning. I'll contribute info on QSUD. One anomalous thing is the kinematic viscosity at 100 C is actually higher with the 5W30 than with the 10W30. How that happened I'm not sure. (Typo?). Here you go. 5W30 first.
What's even weirder is the cst@100 for the QSUD 5w20 is way-way down to around 8.7. Seems strange that....
5w30 is 11.6
5w20 is 8.7
I dont understand the strangeness. Actually a KV100 of 8.7 is high for a 5w20
the range for a SAE20 grade oil is 5.6 > 9.2cSt
The MOTUL Synthetic in my VW is 7.8cSt.
With the introduction of 16 weight oils isn't the "official" bottom end of 20 weight viscosity 6.9 cSt?
>> For similar oils higher KV100 means higher VII content. span>
Moreover, for oils with a similar KV100, higher HTHS means lower VII content.
Therefore, for a low VII content, you want a low KV100 and a high HTHS.
For example a 5W-20 will have less VII than a 5W-30 and its KV100 will be less as a result.
The way it technically works is that a typical VII multiplies KV40 and KV100 of a base oil by approximately the same number (although some multiply KV40 by a larger number and some KV100 by a larger number). Effectively this thickens the oil while maintaining the cold-flow properties and raises the viscosity index. This is what VIIs do: thicken the oil by maintaining the cold-flow properties. As some mistakenly believe, most VIIs do not thicken the oil more when the temperature gets higher.
You can easily tell from the KV100 numbers that Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W-30 has less VII than Mobil 1 5W-30.
These are the estimated relative VII contents from the table I posted at top of this thread:
Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W-30: 1.7% VII
Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30: 3.8% VII
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30: 6.0% VII
Mobil 1 5W-30: 7.8% VII
VAS and PP both have low KV100, which results in a low VII content. In addition VAS has a higher HTHS than PP, which results in even a lower VII content for VAS.
Base-oil viscosity and VII content estimates
Moreover, for oils with a similar KV100, higher HTHS means lower VII content.
Therefore, for a low VII content, you want a low KV100 and a high HTHS.
For example a 5W-20 will have less VII than a 5W-30 and its KV100 will be less as a result.
The way it technically works is that a typical VII multiplies KV40 and KV100 of a base oil by approximately the same number (although some multiply KV40 by a larger number and some KV100 by a larger number). Effectively this thickens the oil while maintaining the cold-flow properties and raises the viscosity index. This is what VIIs do: thicken the oil by maintaining the cold-flow properties. As some mistakenly believe, most VIIs do not thicken the oil more when the temperature gets higher.
You can easily tell from the KV100 numbers that Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W-30 has less VII than Mobil 1 5W-30.
These are the estimated relative VII contents from the table I posted at top of this thread:
Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W-30: 1.7% VII
Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30: 3.8% VII
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30: 6.0% VII
Mobil 1 5W-30: 7.8% VII
VAS and PP both have low KV100, which results in a low VII content. In addition VAS has a higher HTHS than PP, which results in even a lower VII content for VAS.
Base-oil viscosity and VII content estimates
This is a good tool. Thank you
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Valvoline provides good detail :https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/f1d157d1-0f7e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/3aa410a1-0bbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1
Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W30 :
KV100 (cSt) 10.2
VI 158
*Would this then make the Valvoline at or near the top in using the lessor amount of VII's ?
The Valvoline Advanced synthetic also has a relatively high HTHS and a relatively low Noack for a 5W-30. When you look at all the specs, they are all going in the right direction. Plus Valvoline Advanced is now using Moly.
I switched from Mobil 1 to Valvoline Advanced 5W-30 in my Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 and the engine sounds quieter with the Valvoline.
Valvoline provides good detail :https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/f1d157d1-0f7e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/3aa410a1-0bbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1
Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5W30 :
KV100 (cSt) 10.2
VI 158
*Would this then make the Valvoline at or near the top in using the lessor amount of VII's ?
The Valvoline Advanced synthetic also has a relatively high HTHS and a relatively low Noack for a 5W-30. When you look at all the specs, they are all going in the right direction. Plus Valvoline Advanced is now using Moly.
I switched from Mobil 1 to Valvoline Advanced 5W-30 in my Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 and the engine sounds quieter with the Valvoline.
Originally Posted by Tundra73
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I switched from Mobil 1 to Valvoline Advanced 5W-30 in my Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 and the engine sounds quieter with the Valvoline.
What OCI's are you running?
Usually 5K OCIs due to more short trips than not.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I switched from Mobil 1 to Valvoline Advanced 5W-30 in my Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 and the engine sounds quieter with the Valvoline.
What OCI's are you running?
Usually 5K OCIs due to more short trips than not.
Q:...
- How long have VM's been around?
- How long have turbo's been around?
- Where's the graveyard of (t)gdi engines?
- What good are certs/approvals and the testing that goes into obtaining them?
My opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, is this (VII's) is waaaay "over thunk", on the heels of Gokhan's RGT v. T6 thread.
- How long have VM's been around?
- How long have turbo's been around?
- Where's the graveyard of (t)gdi engines?
- What good are certs/approvals and the testing that goes into obtaining them?
My opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, is this (VII's) is waaaay "over thunk", on the heels of Gokhan's RGT v. T6 thread.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Q:...
- How long have VM's been around?
- How long have turbo's been around?
- Where's the graveyard of (t)gdi engines?
- What good are certs/approvals and the testing that goes into obtaining them?
My opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, is this (VII's) is waaaay "over thunk", on the heels of Gokhan's RGT v. T6 thread.
The VII is the number one enemy of the turbochargers.
See the Afton Chemical Corporation paper I posted and discussed:
GM turbocharger test: No correlation for deposits with TEOST 33C or moly
Q:...
- How long have VM's been around?
- How long have turbo's been around?
- Where's the graveyard of (t)gdi engines?
- What good are certs/approvals and the testing that goes into obtaining them?
My opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, is this (VII's) is waaaay "over thunk", on the heels of Gokhan's RGT v. T6 thread.
The VII is the number one enemy of the turbochargers.
See the Afton Chemical Corporation paper I posted and discussed:
GM turbocharger test: No correlation for deposits with TEOST 33C or moly
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
I got the rhythm. Mobil 1. 5W30 first. Same issue on the KV100. 5W30 has a higher viscosity than 10W30. WTH. I don't know if I would seek out a lower VII if it meant going with a lower KV100 viscosity.
M1 5W30
KV100 = 11.0 cSt
HTHS = 3.1 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.282
M1 10W30
KV100 = 10.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.0 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.297
So the KV100 and HTHS in the M1 5W30 is being boosted by polymer VII, which will shear and reduce both numbers in use, and it will leave more deposits.
The 10W30 has less VII, and so will shear less, keep it's KV100 and HTHS closer to it's original values, and leave less deposits.
I got the rhythm. Mobil 1. 5W30 first. Same issue on the KV100. 5W30 has a higher viscosity than 10W30. WTH. I don't know if I would seek out a lower VII if it meant going with a lower KV100 viscosity.
M1 5W30
KV100 = 11.0 cSt
HTHS = 3.1 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.282
M1 10W30
KV100 = 10.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.0 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.297
So the KV100 and HTHS in the M1 5W30 is being boosted by polymer VII, which will shear and reduce both numbers in use, and it will leave more deposits.
The 10W30 has less VII, and so will shear less, keep it's KV100 and HTHS closer to it's original values, and leave less deposits.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Q:...
- How long have VM's been around?
- How long have turbo's been around?
- Where's the graveyard of (t)gdi engines?
- What good are certs/approvals and the testing that goes into obtaining them?
My opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, is this (VII's) is waaaay "over thunk", on the heels of Gokhan's RGT v. T6 thread.
The VII is the number one enemy of the turbochargers.
See the Afton Chemical Corporation paper I posted and discussed:
GM turbocharger test: No correlation for deposits with TEOST 33C or moly
I'm not disputing that fact. What I am questioning is how much of this is "worry wart'ing"? I mean, doesn't Dexos Gen 2 already have a turbocharger deposit test as well as the mfgs, like XOM, having their own proprietary tests for oil deposits, varnishing and coking?? Is the suggestion here that the GM turbo coking test used for D1G2 (which RGT is certified) is now in some way insufficient in re today's turbocharged engines?
Fact is, unless you run a straight grade, you can't 'escape' VII's, so you're always gonna be a little bit pregnant..so to speak. ...
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Q:...
- How long have VM's been around?
- How long have turbo's been around?
- Where's the graveyard of (t)gdi engines?
- What good are certs/approvals and the testing that goes into obtaining them?
My opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, is this (VII's) is waaaay "over thunk", on the heels of Gokhan's RGT v. T6 thread.
The VII is the number one enemy of the turbochargers.
See the Afton Chemical Corporation paper I posted and discussed:
GM turbocharger test: No correlation for deposits with TEOST 33C or moly
I'm not disputing that fact. What I am questioning is how much of this is "worry wart'ing"? I mean, doesn't Dexos Gen 2 already have a turbocharger deposit test as well as the mfgs, like XOM, having their own proprietary tests for oil deposits, varnishing and coking?? Is the suggestion here that the GM turbo coking test used for D1G2 (which RGT is certified) is now in some way insufficient in re today's turbocharged engines?
Fact is, unless you run a straight grade, you can't 'escape' VII's, so you're always gonna be a little bit pregnant..so to speak. ...
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Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
I got the rhythm. Mobil 1. 5W30 first. Same issue on the KV100. 5W30 has a higher viscosity than 10W30. WTH. I don't know if I would seek out a lower VII if it meant going with a lower KV100 viscosity.
M1 5W30
KV100 = 11.0 cSt
HTHS = 3.1 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.282
M1 10W30
KV100 = 10.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.0 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.297
So the KV100 and HTHS in the M1 5W30 is being boosted by polymer VII, which will shear and reduce both numbers in use, and it will leave more deposits.
The 10W30 has less VII, and so will shear less, keep it's KV100 and HTHS closer to it's original values, and leave less deposits.
Yep, exactly.
VI = 172 vs. 146 for M1 5W-30 vs. M1 10W-30, respectively, also showing the former has a lot more VII (7.8% vs. 4.4% (relative content), respectively, according to my estimates).
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
I got the rhythm. Mobil 1. 5W30 first. Same issue on the KV100. 5W30 has a higher viscosity than 10W30. WTH. I don't know if I would seek out a lower VII if it meant going with a lower KV100 viscosity.
M1 5W30
KV100 = 11.0 cSt
HTHS = 3.1 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.282
M1 10W30
KV100 = 10.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.0 cP
(HTHS / KV100) = 0.297
So the KV100 and HTHS in the M1 5W30 is being boosted by polymer VII, which will shear and reduce both numbers in use, and it will leave more deposits.
The 10W30 has less VII, and so will shear less, keep it's KV100 and HTHS closer to it's original values, and leave less deposits.
Yep, exactly.
VI = 172 vs. 146 for M1 5W-30 vs. M1 10W-30, respectively, also showing the former has a lot more VII (7.8% vs. 4.4% (relative content), respectively, according to my estimates).
Good thread. Very relevant to the times, with everything going TGDI.
Even with engines that aren't TGDI...oils with lower VII content would seem to have the potential to keep ringlands cleaner.
Even with engines that aren't TGDI...oils with lower VII content would seem to have the potential to keep ringlands cleaner.
Most grp3 VI's are going to be between 120 and 130 and grp3+ (like GTL) will be above 130 (VHVI), no? Since nobody knows for certain the quality and quantity of the VMs, go with the lowest spread lube using a GTL or PAO BO, if you're worried about VM's and your turbo...or am I missing something here?
Side Note: Does this mean RIP 0w40; you were fun while it lasted?🤔...‚
Side Note: Does this mean RIP 0w40; you were fun while it lasted?🤔...‚
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