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Perplexing Factory Service Information #5343196 02/06/20 10:54 PM
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clinebarger Online Content OP
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Thought I'd share a weird one......

2013 Cadillac ATS with a LTG 2.0L Turbo & a 6L45E 6-speed Auto.
ATF leak out of the Torque Converter Hub seal, Customer had obviously ran the trans low on fluid a few times & burnt the 4-5-6 Clutch down.....I topped off the fluid & test drove it before condemning the clutch pack.

Per the factory service information.......You have to remove the Engine, Transmission, & the K-member to separate the engine from the transmission! While this isn't necessarily ground breaking news as a lot of vehicles require such procedures.
BUT.....A RWD car.....Really??

Referencing Alldata Pro, Motor, & Chilton turned up the exact same repair procedures, Called a buddy that still works at Moritz Cadillac....He drops the powertrain like the book instructs.
Called another buddy that owns a trans shop, He didn't know what a ATS was.....Thought I was working on a CTS. Told the old [censored] to get his ears checked (I was a little more colorful than that.....Mechanic Banter & all)
I even resorted to Google & Youtube smirk2 ......Nothing. People aren't always forthcoming on what parts they break &/or hack-up! But I couldn't even find a hack video.

Decided to just jump-in & try to pull the trans the conventional way & if I lose a couple hours.....So be it! Perks of being the boss.

The trans basically falls out! The only hitches was I had to remove the Downpipe/Catalytic Converter assembly which took about 15 minutes. And I broke one of the Harness Clips that slides over the right upper bellhousing bolt stud, Got one of those coming from Cadillac.

First pic....The clip I broke grin
Second pic.....Didn't even have to drop the driveshaft.
Third pic.....Unit ready to hang.
4th pic.......Pulling the downpipe allowed me access the bellhousing bolts on the left side.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


2001 Chevy Camaro L92/4L80E
2006 Chevy 2500HD LBZ/Allison 1000
2010 Toyota Corolla 2ZR-FE/U341E
2000 Toyota Avalon 1MZ-FE/A541E
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343206 02/06/20 11:03 PM
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clinebarger Online Content OP
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This may only apply to LTG powered ATS's.....A LFX 3.6L may require pulling the entire powertrain & the reason the service manual is written the way it is?

Took about 3 hours to pull the unit, Clean up a little & start draining the torque converter......Making good time on a 14.3 hour job! Customer bought a used trans instead of letting me build this one.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by clinebarger; 02/06/20 11:07 PM.

2001 Chevy Camaro L92/4L80E
2006 Chevy 2500HD LBZ/Allison 1000
2010 Toyota Corolla 2ZR-FE/U341E
2000 Toyota Avalon 1MZ-FE/A541E
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343237 02/06/20 11:36 PM
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rubberchicken Offline
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Very cool. What sort of warranty does the used trans come with ? MSRP on the new trans does not seem quite as painful as I first imagined.

Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343252 02/07/20 12:04 AM
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WhyMe Offline
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how much more would it have been if you rebuilt his tranny?

Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343300 02/07/20 03:57 AM
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Spktyr Offline
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
Per the factory service information.......You have to remove the Engine, Transmission, & the K-member to separate the engine from the transmission! While this isn't necessarily ground breaking news as a lot of vehicles require such procedures.
BUT.....A RWD car.....Really??




There are a LOT of RWD cars that the factory procedure is to remove the powertrain as a unit then separate the trans from the engine. Mostly they're import vehicles as the classic American barges had ample room to get hands and tools back behind the motor and drop the trans out that way. Not so much on the smaller RWD cars of more recent days. Jaguars, for example, had this requirement on almost all RWD models from at least 68-06. No shortage of Japanese and other Euro marque RWD cars where that's the official procedure too. Can you remove the trans without removing the engine in most of them? Yup, usually - but on my 87 XJ6, I've done it both ways (factory and pulling in situ) and it's actually faster to pull the engine and trans as a unit and separate the trans off. If using hand tools, there's about a two hour delta in that car's case. There's not a lot of clearance, there's a lot of ways to screw up and that's one reason why factories tell you to pull the powertrain as a unit.

Last edited by Spktyr; 02/07/20 03:59 AM.
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343301 02/07/20 04:02 AM
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Delta Offline
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
The trans basically falls out! The only hitches was I had to remove the Downpipe/Catalytic Converter assembly which took about 15 minutes. And I broke one of the Harness Clips that slides over the right upper bellhousing bolt stud, Got one of those coming from Cadillac.


Definitely ain't doing it that easy where I live. LOL That thing would be so rusted together after 7-8 years. I envy your ability to work on corrosion free vehicles!


'17 VW GTI 2.0T - 6MT - 20K - Edge 0w40
'15 Camry SE - 2.5 - 26K - PP 0w20
'09 Tacoma TRD Offroad 4x4 - 4.0 - 139K - RGT 5w30
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343334 02/07/20 05:44 AM
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Trav Offline
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You know how this goes with as many years in the business as you and I have. I have run into this many times, they want you to pull the drive train on one car to do the cam chain when in reality you loosen the engine mounts, remove the cv shafts and turn the engine a few degrees to the left and bang your in, 2 hrs vs 10.
If I look at it and decide this is no big deal the book goes out the window so to speak except for relevant into like marks, tightening sequence and torque settings.

Good job on that one Cline, made some hrs.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343353 02/07/20 06:23 AM
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Donald Offline
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Nothing beats having to pull the cab to work on the Ford PSD.


2015 Ford F-250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343487 02/07/20 09:10 AM
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exranger06 Offline
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The factory service info for my Toyota Sienna is nuts. Need to replace the front lower control arms? Step 1: Drop engine/trans/subframe assembly. Uhh, what? crzy
Need to drop the transmission pan? Step 1: Drop engine/trans/subframe assembly. shocked2 Actually, I did drop the trans pan and I had to unbolt the trans mount and jack the trans up a few inches to get access to some of the pan bolts. But there is zero reason to drop the subframe to change the control arms. You don't need to unbolt anything to access them; they're right out in the open! shrug


2006 Ford Ranger Sport
1992 Honda Accord EX
2013 Toyota Sienna XLE AWD
1994 Ford Bronco XLT (project)
2011 Cadillac Escalade ESV (wife's)
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343572 02/07/20 10:21 AM
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andyd Offline
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Look at the money the manual people saved. Basically telling you that the first step, is to drop engine/trans. Drop, not pull. It is the reverse of the assembly process I first saw this at a BMW dlr working on 2 yr old car. Left the brakes hanging and unhitched the sub-frame and lowered while the car was raised away from it. It sure would make any work way easier. grin2


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5343600 02/07/20 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
Called a buddy that still works at Moritz Cadillac....He drops the powertrain like the book instructs.

He's paid hourly vs flat-rate, huh ? If he is flat-rate, you should tell him it's not necessary and he at least owes you quite a few beers !

Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: hallstevenson] #5343639 02/07/20 11:28 AM
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nthach Online Content
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Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Called a buddy that still works at Moritz Cadillac....He drops the powertrain like the book instructs.

He's paid hourly vs flat-rate, huh ? If he is flat-rate, you should tell him it's not necessary and he at least owes you quite a few beers !

Probably why clinebarger keeps that Coors Light bucket on his workbench for that reason! :p

Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: Spktyr] #5344135 02/07/20 09:34 PM
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clinebarger Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by Spktyr
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Per the factory service information.......You have to remove the Engine, Transmission, & the K-member to separate the engine from the transmission! While this isn't necessarily ground breaking news as a lot of vehicles require such procedures.
BUT.....A RWD car.....Really??




There are a LOT of RWD cars that the factory procedure is to remove the powertrain as a unit then separate the trans from the engine. Mostly they're import vehicles as the classic American barges had ample room to get hands and tools back behind the motor and drop the trans out that way. Not so much on the smaller RWD cars of more recent days. Jaguars, for example, had this requirement on almost all RWD models from at least 68-06. No shortage of Japanese and other Euro marque RWD cars where that's the official procedure too. Can you remove the trans without removing the engine in most of them? Yup, usually - but on my 87 XJ6, I've done it both ways (factory and pulling in situ) and it's actually faster to pull the engine and trans as a unit and separate the trans off. If using hand tools, there's about a two hour delta in that car's case. There's not a lot of clearance, there's a lot of ways to screw up and that's one reason why factories tell you to pull the powertrain as a unit.





Interestingly enough......I have plenty of experience on 80's Jaguar XJS's & wouldn't even consider pulling the V12 just to get the TH400 out. But as you point out....The tunnels in those car were very narrow but that's why I have really long 1/2" to 3/8" extensions.


2001 Chevy Camaro L92/4L80E
2006 Chevy 2500HD LBZ/Allison 1000
2010 Toyota Corolla 2ZR-FE/U341E
2000 Toyota Avalon 1MZ-FE/A541E
Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5344165 02/07/20 10:17 PM
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Timmastertech Offline
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That used trans isnt going to work without some extra work. That car is a global A vehicle which means used control modules are a no go. The 6 speed transmissions have the TCM internal to the trans. To make it work, you have a few options. You can try to virginize the tehcm in the replacement trans which may or may not be doable but it going to be done at the EEPROM level, you can swap the tehcm from the original trans to replacement, which may or may not be a good idea since you had a catastrophic fail, or put a new tehcm in the replacement trans and program with SPS.

https://gm-techlink.com/?p=11221

Re: Perplexing Factory Service Information [Re: clinebarger] #5344195 02/07/20 11:32 PM
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Spktyr Offline
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Originally Posted by clinebarger

Interestingly enough......I have plenty of experience on 80's Jaguar XJS's & wouldn't even consider pulling the V12 just to get the TH400 out. But as you point out....The tunnels in those car were very narrow but that's why I have really long 1/2" to 3/8" extensions.


Yeah, the V12 is a different beast than the XK or AJ6/16 engines when it comes to that. It's a *lot* easier to get the powertrain out of the sixes as a whole unit than the V12 cars. It's also a lot easier to work on the sixes in general. laugh

Last edited by Spktyr; 02/07/20 11:32 PM.
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