Chevrolet Silverado Transmission Failure

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I don't get why they need so much cooling--Aisin transmissions seem to run hotter. Or am I conflating pan temp with convertor outlet temp?

Just seems that the A340 (AW4) are known to run notoriously hot yet live a long time. Maybe both run similar temps? A340's would have been used in lower power applications, thus lower amounts of heat, maybe that is the difference. During towing anyhow.
 
Some things are just going to fail regardless of how well you try to keep them serviced, maintained and 'babied'.

The weakest links in a GM 700R4/4L60 (and newer variants) are the input drum and sun gear shell assembly. The sun gear shell is a flawed design because they are a two-piece design. The upgraded aftermarket units are beefier and one-piece. The center spline ring will break and you essentially lose 2nd, 4th, and reverse. I know old grandpa's who've had this things fail...never pulled a trailer or hauled anything over a few hundred pounds in the back.

Another good upgrade is the input sprag...especially for towing. I will also echo the recommendation for a larger transmission cooler.
 
And people rip cvt technology. Seriously though, that sucks that it blew and sucks even more it happened in front of a dealership. Poor guys gonna get screwed twice if that warranty doesn't do what it's supposed to.
 
The mid-2000s on 4L60/65Es were notoriously bad - GM moved parts manufacture to China on those, and they went from a reasonably good trans to just random quality at best. Edmunds had their review unit blow up on them pretty infamously - but a few years later the review mysteriously went down the memory hole and GM advertising appeared far more prominently on Edmunds at the same time...

Fortunately, I saved the header graphic (because it was funny and played on the name of a band I liked) and archive.org saved the rest.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


https://web.archive.org/web/20081.../LongTerm/articleId=117490/pageId=151142


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A full test of the 2007 GMC Sierra with the six-speed transmission showed us that GM knows how to build a strong transmission for this truck. But when the aforementioned four-speed in our Silverado fell on its own sword in the middle of traffic that Sunday morning, we lost all confidence in the Chevy.

Over a period of several weeks we had noticed a hard 1-2 shift while the transmission was cold. Once it warmed up, the shift action smoothed out. There were no signs of impending doom, so when we took the Silverado to Santa Monica Chevrolet-Buick for routine service, we asked the service personnel to look over the transmission.

After two days we called for an update. We were told the 3-4 clutch was losing hydraulic pressure and the piston was replaced under warranty. The technicians also reconditioned the transmission. When we reminded our trusty service advisor that the problem was with the 1-2 shift and off-neutral gear engagement, he assured us this was the proper fix. We picked up the truck and two miles later a hard 1-2 shift served as proof that the original issue remained.

We brought it back a few days later and were told by Santa Monica Chevrolet-Buick, "There is no problem. That is just how the truck shifts." Days later the problem came to a head with Senior Photographer Scott Jacobs at the wheel. Jacobs' voice was shaky on the phone. "The Silverado is parked at the office. The transmission locked up on me during a 2-3 shift. It screeched and lurched to a stop on Wilshire Boulevard. Drive doesn't work. Third doesn't work. Second doesn't work. First and reverse sort of work. The office was only a couple of blocks away so I was able to limp it back. An hour later and I'd have been on the Interstate 5 freeway headed to the Dodgers game. That was lucky."

GM Roadside Assistance came to our rescue, towing the Silverado from the office to the local Santa Monica dealership. We called to confirm the status of the vehicle later that afternoon. The advisor was surprisingly frank with his diagnosis. "We've had a rash of these lately...with the input housing busting as the mileage gets up there. It should be ready by end of day tomorrow." The forward sprag was replaced, the transmission again reconditioned and keys to the Silverado were back in our hands the next day.

Good news was that all gears worked again. The bad news was that the transmission didn't shift any smoother after this repair than before. We later learned there was an open technical service bulletin from Chevrolet about this issue. It made us wonder, if the dealer had already noted a "rash" of these transmission failures, why hadn't the sprag been replaced to begin with?
 
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Originally Posted by GoldDot40
Some things are just going to fail regardless of how well you try to keep them serviced, maintained and 'babied'.

The weakest links in a GM 700R4/4L60 (and newer variants) are the input drum and sun gear shell assembly. The sun gear shell is a flawed design because they are a two-piece design. The upgraded aftermarket units are beefier and one-piece. The center spline ring will break and you essentially lose 2nd, 4th, and reverse. I know old grandpa's who've had this things fail...never pulled a trailer or hauled anything over a few hundred pounds in the back.

Another good upgrade is the input sprag...especially for towing. I will also echo the recommendation for a larger transmission cooler.


I can confirm the sunshell failure being common. My friend's old Caddy Fleetwood with a 4L60E is parked out in front of my place with a blown sun shell - it went POP and suddenly it only had first. It did manage to make it about 220K, though. It never towed (it doesn't have a hitch and never did) and it broke under light acceleration in traffic. Though I'm sure it had been slowly damaged/worn over the years.

I do have a nice late 700R4 in a transmission-converted Jaguar. So far so good on it, and prior to install, it was rebuilt with all upgraded parts, mostly B&M bits IIRC. It became a core for rebuilding when the sunshell exploded under the previous owner...

Originally Posted by supton
I don't get why they need so much cooling--Aisin transmissions seem to run hotter. Or am I conflating pan temp with convertor outlet temp?

Just seems that the A340 (AW4) are known to run notoriously hot yet live a long time. Maybe both run similar temps? A340's would have been used in lower power applications, thus lower amounts of heat, maybe that is the difference. During towing anyhow.


I believe, but admittedly have no evidence, that the A340 may have been engineered with a higher temp capacity in mind. That said, they too can have cooling issues. The one in my 4Runner has a nice big Hayden 678 added to its cooling circuit and reports nice low temps on my ScanGauge II, just as a precaution.
 
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After all these years you would think that manufacturers could produce an almost bullet proof transmission. I am now on the third transmission in my Ford F-150 and only at 117,000 miles of mostly empty cargo bed driving.....really??
 
Driven GM trucks since the 80's … no issues. BiL did 400k miles on 2002 - no power train issues. Aside from brakes/tires - two wheel bearings.
The last one I traded in was 8 years old - no repairs - zero dealerships.
Strong believers in early fluid changes - they are going to shed and load those magnets during break in and - once they get loaded the metal is free.
 
Originally Posted by supton
I don't get why they need so much cooling--Aisin transmissions seem to run hotter. Or am I conflating pan temp with convertor outlet temp?

Just seems that the A340 (AW4) are known to run notoriously hot yet live a long time. Maybe both run similar temps? A340's would have been used in lower power applications, thus lower amounts of heat, maybe that is the difference. During towing anyhow.

Toyota trans also don't hold too much fluid either - about 2-3 quarts in the pan for RWD ones and 3-4 quarts for FWD ones. The A340 series found its way into heavy Lexus applications and the V8 Tundra/Sequoia/LC. The MKIV Supra Turbo used the Lexus A341E too.

I was nerding out over the 4L60-E when I was still maintaining a GMT400 Tahoe. I was shocked at how much of an aftermarket exists to fix the main issues on these, both good(Sonnax, Transgo) and bad(Chinese) parts.
 
Yeah the 4L60E family is blah. 4L65E, 4L70E and 4L75E

I have had a couple of 60Es and I have personally never blown one up.

The 4L80E is a totally different animal.

The 6L80E is better. Caprice has that.

My 3/4 ton has the 6L90E. Those are pretty good.

Both the 6L80 and 90E have 45,000 mile service intervals.
 
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Yeah those ls motors are making so darned much torque that ya gotta have a big bruiser behind it.
He he!
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Originally Posted by GoldDot40
Some things are just going to fail regardless of how well you try to keep them serviced, maintained and 'babied'.

The weakest links in a GM 700R4/4L60 (and newer variants) are the input drum and sun gear shell assembly. The sun gear shell is a flawed design because they are a two-piece design. The upgraded aftermarket units are beefier and one-piece. The center spline ring will break and you essentially lose 2nd, 4th, and reverse. I know old grandpa's who've had this things fail...never pulled a trailer or hauled anything over a few hundred pounds in the back.

Another good upgrade is the input sprag...especially for towing. I will also echo the recommendation for a larger transmission cooler.


OE Reaction Sun Shell's were never a 2-piece design, Though the early versions did break into 2 pieces when they failed
lol.gif
, Then GM decided to reduce the heat treat on the splined area.....That led to stripped splines. Around 2001, They got the heat treating down pretty good, But can still eventually strip out.

Sonnax has a upgraded sun shell, They take a OE 4L65E shell & further heat treat the splines & weld a reinforcement around the splined collar to prevent breakage.

The "Beast" sun shell was the first successful attempt at completely eliminating sun shell failure, But SPX-Filtran sold the Patent to Pro-Select & manufacturing was moved to Taiwan. While still very strong....They didn't balance them & 2 out of every 3 were bent or otherwise had a ton of runout.




A bit of attention has to be paid to the Input Drum! I first check that the Input Shaft is not loose in the drum. Put it in my hot water cleaning machine at 250° for about an hour. While steaming hot I try my hardest to pull the shaft out of the drum. If I can pull it out by hand.....The unit gets a new OE drum!!!!

If the shaft doesn't pull out, I put it back in the machine for @ 10 minutes, Take it out & immediately press the shaft out with a arbor press.
Using a wire hanger to suspend the drum by one of the machined holes. Then take a screwdriver & lightly strike the drum, IF a crack is present it will have a dull short ring to it. IF no crack is present it will have a long crisp ring to it.

I apply Loctite high temp retaining compound to the shaft splines & press the shaft back into the drum & let it sit for 24 hours. Then temporarily install the old 3/4, Forward, & Overrun pistons, Friction & steels back in the drum.
With the drum sitting upright it the parts washer, Fill the cavity around the Input shaft with solvent, Place a finger over the 3/4 clutch bleed hole, & apply air to the 3/4 clutch feed hole in the Input shaft.
There shouldn't be ANY leakage from the spline interface or the check ball capsule, The Capsule is replaceable if leaking!
I then install Sonnax 77733-51K Input Drum reinforcement kit, And assemble the drum with new pistons & clutches.




The 3/4 Clutch is another item that needs it's share of attention! I start by leveling the 3/4 apply housing "Fingers". You got to use a T-Mic to check the distance variation between the apply plate & backing plate & then sanding down the taller housing fingers 'til it's level within .002".
I use 7 .080" Borg Warner High Energy frictions & 6 .077" Alto Kolene treated steels.....I adjust the clearance with GM selectable backing plates to .020"-.025"
In high performance/high RPM applications.....Use 700R4 Overrun return springs with the 4L60E bottom spring retainer & new Sonnax 3/4 Boost Springs 77763-01




The French made SFK Input/Forward Sprag used in the later units isn't so bad & I've seen them take some abuse. It's the Brass Races/Thrusts that wear out & allow the sprag to run cock-eyed.
A Borg Warner 29 element, Dual Cage, Steel Race sprag is the gold standard & what I use on all builds.





GM really missed the mark on calibrating the truck & fullsize passenger car 4L60E's!
They used a "553" 2nd apply servo piston & a large ratio Accumulator pressure control Bushing & Valve. Causing the 2/4 band to not have adequate holding power, But firm up the 1-2 shift with higher Accumulator pressures.
It's backwards!
Use a "093" 2nd apply piston (Known as a Corvette servo) for better 2nd apply holding power, And leave the bumper spring out of the Accumulator Valve......Or better yet, Find a "A" or "B" code Accumulator bushing & Valve & reuse the original spring. 700R4's are a good source for these. Most truck 4L60E's come with a "D/DX" code.
Be sure to add the secondary servo cushion spring GM# 8681195 when installing a 093 2nd apply piston!

Transgo has 5 different weight springs in their shift kits & a special pin that allows removal of the Bushing/Valve/Spring without dropping the valve body. This allows fine tuning of the 1-2 shift without much hassle.

Drill the 2nd apply orifice to .070"-.073", Don't fret.....You can adjust 1-2 firmness with the Accumulator Bushing/Valve/Spring! It's a lot tougher to pull the valve body & replace the plate because you followed some "Boy Racer" advise on the internet & drill the feed hole out to 1/16".

Set the 2/4 Band clearance to .060", Yes this IS tight. This can only be accomplished with a longer apply pin......Use Sonnax 77787-02K. Never shim the piston like Transgo states in their shift kit instructions!
Use a Borg Warner High Energy Band & a New GM Reverse Input Drum (What the band rides on). Resist the urge for Alto Red & Kevlar bands.


There's a lot more to tech share on this unit, But I think I'll stop here. This thread doesn't even concern 4L60E's, I guess they're the 6.0L PSD of the transmission world? But when built correctly....They can be REALLY good unit & actually prefer them over a 4L80E in performance applications! They can downshift straight from 4th to 1st in a instant & put more power to the ground!

If you're towing heavy or making more than 500HP/TQ &/or using power adders.....A 4L80E will be more durable!
 
Originally Posted by Rat407
Originally Posted by parshisa
Originally Posted by TXCarGeek
My '08 Silverado is on it's third trans rebuild...those 4L60s for ya. What year is your buddy's truck?

I believe his truck is ‘15 or ‘16. Very fresh i'd say


Could it have the 8sp in it?


If it has a 6.2L....Assuming it is a '15, '16 or '17?
 
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Originally Posted by Kira
I thought the 4L60E was a proven GM unit used in everything from cars up to 3/4 ton twucks.

A neighbor's 2000 (2001?) Camaro with the 3800 had that transmission.
The unit over a quart low so I topped it off (naturally) and never saw any evidence of leakage over several months.
A little reading on it revealed nothing but positive comments.

I'm confused. Darned GM.


They seem to be hit or miss. Many 4L60E's with 200k+ trouble free miles, and some fail early.
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Update. Dealership is still playing dirty game not saying my buddy neither yes or no. I told him to start a case with corporate which he did. I'll keep y'all posted on the progress
 
Originally Posted by parshisa
Update. Dealership is still playing dirty game not saying my buddy neither yes or no. I told him to start a case with corporate which he did. I'll keep y'all posted on the progress


Some key details are missing in your story. What year is the truck? GM's warranty has expanded and contracted over the last few years. Also, what exactly is the "extended warranty" and through whom, GM or third party or one of those dealer back extended warranty that only pay out if every recommended scheduled service was done by the dealer?

Devil is in the details and I suspect what your friend thought he had for coverage is not exactly what the written warranty coverage said.
 
Originally Posted by Hootbro
Originally Posted by parshisa
Update. Dealership is still playing dirty game not saying my buddy neither yes or no. I told him to start a case with corporate which he did. I'll keep y'all posted on the progress


Some key details are missing in your story. What year is the truck? GM's warranty has expanded and contracted over the last few years. Also, what exactly is the "extended warranty" and through whom, GM or third party or one of those dealer back extended warranty that only pay out if every recommended scheduled service was done by the dealer?

Devil is in the details and I suspect what your friend thought he had for coverage is not exactly what the written warranty coverage said.

Just spoke with him during handover: 1. Truck is 2017 with 78k miles on it right now (lots of driving between the rigs). 2. Apparently he paid 4,700$ at the time of purchase for an extended warranty that was supposed to cover it for 5yr/60k miles (on top of the factory as he was told). 3. Dealer is now saying that this coverage is not on top of the factory but in addition (meaning there's no extra years or mileage). That is a complete nonsense for sure. 4. According to him he had a minor warranty work done recently and work order states contract number as well as expiration date of the warranty which is few years from today.

Anyhow, that's all I got for now. He is expecting a call from SENIOR service adviser today (obviously regular adviser cannot handle such a complex case).
 
Originally Posted by parshisa

Just spoke with him during handover: 1. Truck is 2017 with 78k miles on it right now (lots of driving between the rigs). 2. Apparently he paid 4,700$ at the time of purchase for an extended warranty that was supposed to cover it for 5yr/60k miles (on top of the factory as he was told). 3. Dealer is now saying that this coverage is not on top of the factory but in addition (meaning there's no extra years or mileage). That is a complete nonsense for sure. 4. According to him he had a minor warranty work done recently and work order states contract number as well as expiration date of the warranty which is few years from today.

Anyhow, that's all I got for now. He is expecting a call from SENIOR service adviser today (obviously regular adviser cannot handle such a complex case).


First of all, I am not trying to dog pile on your friends plight. Has your friend actually looked at the contract paperwork of what he bought for the extended warranty when he bought it? That will tell him what he actually signed for and not what he was "told" which is inadmissible. $4700 is a pretty large amount and for just an extended warranty, is way inflated. I would hope he had gotten additional services for that money like gap insurance or other services for that cost.

That being said, GM did offer an additional cost extended warranty for 5/60 but that was just to carry the bumper to bumper coverage out from 3/36 to 5/60. Regular powertrain was still 5/60 then also.

For your friend to have had additional coverage outside the 5/60 and bought through GM, it would have been advertised and sold as a "Protection Plan" and not worded as an extended warranty on the paperwork regardless of what any salesman of finance manager may have called it. If your friend did not buy this "Protection Plan", he does not have extended coverage.
 
Originally Posted by Hootbro
Originally Posted by parshisa

Just spoke with him during handover: 1. Truck is 2017 with 78k miles on it right now (lots of driving between the rigs). 2. Apparently he paid 4,700$ at the time of purchase for an extended warranty that was supposed to cover it for 5yr/60k miles (on top of the factory as he was told). 3. Dealer is now saying that this coverage is not on top of the factory but in addition (meaning there's no extra years or mileage). That is a complete nonsense for sure. 4. According to him he had a minor warranty work done recently and work order states contract number as well as expiration date of the warranty which is few years from today.

Anyhow, that's all I got for now. He is expecting a call from SENIOR service adviser today (obviously regular adviser cannot handle such a complex case).


First of all, I am not trying to dog pile on your friends plight. Has your friend actually looked at the contract paperwork of what he bought for the extended warranty when he bought it? That will tell him what he actually signed for and not what he was "told" which is inadmissible. $4700 is a pretty large amount and for just an extended warranty, is way inflated. I would hope he had gotten additional services for that money like gap insurance or other services for that cost.

That being said, GM did offer an additional cost extended warranty for 5/60 but that was just to carry the bumper to bumper coverage out from 3/36 to 5/60. Regular powertrain was still 5/60 then also.

For your friend to have had additional coverage outside the 5/60 and bought through GM, it would have been advertised and sold as a "Protection Plan" and not worded as an extended warranty on the paperwork regardless of what any salesman of finance manager may have called it. If your friend did not buy this "Protection Plan", he does not have extended coverage.

That could be very much the case. He really doesn't sound like he knows what's on the paper or just not willing to share. And I can't really bug him constantly unless he asks for my opinion. Anyhow, we'll see wjat happens, i'll talk to him tomorrow
 
I worked at a company that had a fleet of Chevy 1 ton's w/flatbed. Some had the Turbo 350 transmission. They lasted 3 to 6 months after repair. The others had Turbo 400 transmissions. They were rock solid. Outlasted the 350 engines. That was in the 90's into the early 2000's. Don't know if GM has improved their transmissions or let them go south. In general automatics usually don't last long after rebuild. Get the beefiest transmission for a GM truck.

A small under powered engine will wear out an automatic faster than a more powerful engine as the transmission has to work harder to make up for what the engine lacks. Especially true if you are doing any towing or carrying heavy loads.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by Rat407
Originally Posted by parshisa
Originally Posted by TXCarGeek
My '08 Silverado is on it's third trans rebuild...those 4L60s for ya. What year is your buddy's truck?

I believe his truck is ‘15 or ‘16. Very fresh i'd say


Could it have the 8sp in it?


If it has a 6.2L....Assuming it is a '15, '16 or '17?


It doesn't neccesarily have to be the 6.2L. I had a 2017 Sierra with the 8 speed and a 5.3L. GM doesn't really have a fix for the 8 speed other than the new Mobil One fluid which didn't solve the issues with my truck.
 
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