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School me on tread design and performance #5335201 01/29/20 07:43 AM
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MoneyJohn Offline OP
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Many times I read on the board someone saying, I don't like tread design, it may not do X well or better for y type of handling. Is there any consensus understanding of how certain tread design performs in certain kinds of road conditions?

I was looking at RT43, Exclaim HPX, and BFGoodrich - Advantage T/A Sport. All 3 have different tread designs. General makes similar claims with RT43 and Exclaim HPX but the tread design is a little different. I am wondering, just looking at tread design what are the best-educated guesses on their performance (other than what is stated by the manufacturer).

Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335248 01/29/20 08:28 AM
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dadto2 Offline
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I know that a closed block design will be quieter on the road, but an open block will evacuate water, slush, and snow better. And in western NY, I need that slush evacuation more than anything else!

Open tread, see that the outside blocks are independent:

[Linked Image]

Closed tread, see how the outside blocks have that space blocked off:

[Linked Image]


'16 GMC Sierra 1500 Crew Cab 4.3
'15 Volvo S60 T5 AWD
'99 Volvo S70 2.4
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335253 01/29/20 08:35 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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It's relatively simple. Less tread = more dry grip on smooth surface (Example Racing Slicks). Changing the surface by the addition of grooves and sipes reduces smooth dry grip but enhances removal of water, off road grip, snow grip. Tread design also dictates tire noise whereas large chunky block are noiser vs smaller closely spaced blocks. Of course rubber compound is a key factor as well. Side wall height also impacts performance.

It's all a balancing act for the intended application (i.e., Track, HP (aka Summer Tires), HP A/S, A/S, Off Road, HP Snow, Snow/Ice, etc). Shop for your intended application and then fine tune for what's important for you (noise vs grip vs tire life, etc).


Last edited by BMWTurboDzl; 01/29/20 08:36 AM.

“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

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Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: dadto2] #5335257 01/29/20 08:37 AM
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Char Baby Offline
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Originally Posted by dadto2
I know that a closed block design will be quieter on the road, but an open block will evacuate water, slush, and snow better. And in western NY, I need that slush evacuation more than anything else!

Open tread, see that the outside blocks are independent:

[Linked Image]

Closed tread, see how the outside blocks have that space blocked off:

[Linked Image]


So, which one did/would you choose? The RT43 or Exclaim.
I've used RT43 and they were great in the foul weather/winter here in ROC.

Last edited by Char Baby; 01/29/20 08:37 AM.

Retired 6 yrs now & lovin' it
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic 1.8 LX
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335261 01/29/20 08:43 AM
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IndyIan Offline
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Bigger tread blocks with less sipes works better on pavement, even wet pavement until water depth start making aquaplaning an issue. More sipes/edges/corners is better for snow but folds over during maximum dry handling.
I think the first two are virtually the same tread pattern wise, but I suspect the HPX has a compound better for pavement handling, and worse in snow. The T/A sport tread pattern is approaching a dedicated high performance summer tire and I wouldn't try to use it in the winter if you get into snow and slush regularly. Its probably better on dry pavement in the cold than the first two but a half inch of slush will turn the tables quickly.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 245km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 35km 0W20
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: Char Baby] #5335282 01/29/20 09:06 AM
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dadto2 Offline
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Originally Posted by Char Baby
Originally Posted by dadto2
I know that a closed block design will be quieter on the road, but an open block will evacuate water, slush, and snow better. And in western NY, I need that slush evacuation more than anything else!

Open tread, see that the outside blocks are independent:

[Linked Image]

Closed tread, see how the outside blocks have that space blocked off:

[Linked Image]


So, which one did/would you choose? The RT43 or Exclaim.
I've used RT43 and they were great in the foul weather/winter here in ROC.


That first photo is a Uniroyal Laredo, had them on my Colorado and they were great. Second photo are Continental ContiProContact, they were factory on our Altima and were terrible. Just a dusting of snow and the car was all over the road. Swapped them for Michelin Defenders, and it was like having an entirely different car.

I currently have Continental ExtremeContact on the S60, Nokian WRG3 on the S70, and Nokian Rotiiva A/T on the Sierra. Very happy with all. Especially the Rotiivas, that RWD truck does just fine in all weather.

Edit: I just realized you were addressing the OP, but there's my $.02 anyway...

Last edited by dadto2; 01/29/20 09:11 AM.

'16 GMC Sierra 1500 Crew Cab 4.3
'15 Volvo S60 T5 AWD
'99 Volvo S70 2.4
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335365 01/29/20 11:07 AM
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madRiver Offline
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Reviews are most important on tires. Tread design indicates some thing but honestly looking at one tire won't tell as much as people think.

Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335389 01/29/20 11:30 AM
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CapriRacer Offline
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Ah, something I spent a lot of time working on: Tread patterns.

So for the purposes of this discussion, I am only going to talk about the pattern itself, not the effect tire size, tread compound, the casing structure, etc. has on performance.

First, large buttons are best for stability. That's why truly high performance tires use them. They also wear well. The downside is that they produce low frequency noise and that sometimes translates into a tactile vibration.

Small buttons, are good for penetrating water surfaces, but they produce high frequency noise and wear more rapidly..

By the same token, breaking up a large button into smaller segments, by using sipes is just another way to get the tread elements small.

To prevent noise from becoming objectionable, a mix of large and small tread elements works best. This is because you can fool the ear into thinking that a lot of noise spread over a wide frequency range is quieter than one where the noise is concentrated into one frequency. Because of that, you will find that tires generally have a circumferential pattern where the pattern is repeated, but each repeat is slightly larger or slightly smaller than the one adjacent to it.

Wet traction? There are 2 regimes: Wet grip and hydroplaning resistance.

Wet grip is generally about small tread elements penetrating the water film and getting to the road surface. But since the road surface texture interacts with the tread elements, this can be problematic. Some road surfaces will promote noise in certain tread patterns, and other surfaces will promote noise in others. The same is true of wet grip. Testing for wet traction among many different tires will result in reversals of rank order depending on which surface the testing takes place.

Hydroplaning resistance is about channeling the water through or around the footprint. Large groves work well for those channels, as does V shaped grooves. But be careful as many V shaped patterns don't provide an outlet for the water to escape!

Snow traction is generally about edges - the more the better. The problem is that there are many kinds of snow and some provide more traction if they are compressed a bit, so a compromise between grooves and sipes is needed to cover the possible range of snow types.

Wear: Clearly large blocks are best, but corners can be problematic. Any acute corner is more prone to wear than an obtuse angle.using octagons or hexagons would be better than squares or rectangles. Sometimes a corner is cut of or angled to create an obtuse angle.

So tread patterns are designed with the end in mind. Tires designed for dry grip are going to look one way, and tires designed for wet traction are going to look another, while snow traction requires a different pattern altogether.

Hope this helps.


CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335424 01/29/20 12:05 PM
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Olas Offline
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Less schooling and more anecdata, but:

This is the only tread pattern that has ever allowed me to corner so hard I hurt my neck! I couldnt move my head, I couldnt drive home, I had to call a family member to come and get me! That says something about the level of lateral grip generated by a tyre;

https://www.etyres.co.uk/yokohama/a...wkrKp5wIVhrTtCh3bswGxEAQYAiABEgLhgvD_BwE

Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335470 01/29/20 12:50 PM
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geeman789 Offline
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I like tires with a simple tread pattern. Like these ... probably pretty good in the winter LOL

[Linked Image]


2011 SUBARU Impreza 5-door manual / 2016 HONDA Pilot / 2011 MAZDA 2 auto
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335489 01/29/20 01:17 PM
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jayjr1105 Offline
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Originally Posted by MoneyJohn
Many times I read on the board someone saying, I don't like tread design, it may not do X well or better for y type of handling. Is there any consensus understanding of how certain tread design performs in certain kinds of road conditions?

I was looking at RT43, Exclaim HPX, and BFGoodrich - Advantage T/A Sport. All 3 have different tread designs. General makes similar claims with RT43 and Exclaim HPX but the tread design is a little different. I am wondering, just looking at tread design what are the best-educated guesses on their performance (other than what is stated by the manufacturer).


I was one of those who thought tread design or looks was important. I was wrong (mostly). Don't stress out over new tires, just get RT43's and be done with it. Seriously, they are incredible all around and are very much above average in the snow/slush. I wish I knew about RT43's back a couple years ago when I threw some cheap Dunlops on my van which could be better but not terrible.


2013 Mazda 3 - PP 0w20
2005 Honda Odyssey - PP HM 5w20
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: geeman789] #5335515 01/29/20 01:45 PM
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spavel6 Offline
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Originally Posted by geeman789
I like tires with a simple tread pattern. Like these ... probably pretty good in the winter LOL

[Linked Image]


Looks like a closed-tread design LOL


2003 VW Jetta Wagon TDI 198k M1 5W40 TDT
2001 VW GTI VR6 250k T6 5W40
2001 VW Passat Wagon V6 4motion 110k PP 5W30
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: CapriRacer] #5335554 01/29/20 02:33 PM
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MoneyJohn Offline OP
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Thank you, everyone, for comments.

I understand that there is a lot goes on in the tire when you start discussing performance, the speed rating, sidewall, compound etc, plus the tread pattern. As @CapriRacer gave loads of examples that there is a LOT there. I agree that the actual experiences are also important to know how they perform in real-world testing. That said, I am only interested in learning about the tread pattern here. I am not interested in the looks but the functional advantages of certain tread patterns only.

Originally Posted by CapriRacer
Ah, something I spent a lot of time working on: Tread patterns.

So for the purposes of this discussion, I am only going to talk about the pattern itself, not the effect tire size, tread compound, the casing structure, etc. has on performance.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. If you have a write up on your website, with examples, pls link it. It would help immensely to understand every point you brought up in the post. If not, I will personally appreciate such a post.

That said, if I have to compare RT43 and Exclaim HPX, how should Exclaim perform differently compared to RT43, just looking at the treads There is no shortage of reviews of RT43 but not many for Exclaim HPX. Being close to NYC, a review of someone from FL or TX doesn't really help me for all-season purposes.

Altimax RT43
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Exclaim HPX
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Thanks again.

Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335572 01/29/20 02:53 PM
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jayjr1105 Offline
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Originally Posted by MoneyJohn
Thank you, everyone, for comments.

I understand that there is a lot goes on in the tire when you start discussing performance, the speed rating, sidewall, compound etc, plus the tread pattern. As @CapriRacer gave loads of examples that there is a LOT there. I agree that the actual experiences are also important to know how they perform in real-world testing. That said, I am only interested in learning about the tread pattern here. I am not interested in the looks but the functional advantages of certain tread patterns only.

Originally Posted by CapriRacer
Ah, something I spent a lot of time working on: Tread patterns.

So for the purposes of this discussion, I am only going to talk about the pattern itself, not the effect tire size, tread compound, the casing structure, etc. has on performance.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. If you have a write up on your website, with examples, pls link it. It would help immensely to understand every point you brought up in the post. If not, I will personally appreciate such a post.

That said, if I have to compare RT43 and Exclaim HPX, how should Exclaim perform differently compared to RT43, just looking at the treads There is no shortage of reviews of RT43 but not many for Exclaim HPX. Being close to NYC, a review of someone from FL or TX doesn't really help me for all-season purposes.


Thanks again.

Altimax all the way for the northeast. I've never even heard of the other tire.


2013 Mazda 3 - PP 0w20
2005 Honda Odyssey - PP HM 5w20
Re: School me on tread design and performance [Re: MoneyJohn] #5335583 01/29/20 03:14 PM
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Duffyjr Offline
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Originally Posted by MoneyJohn
Thank you, everyone, for comments.

I understand that there is a lot goes on in the tire when you start discussing performance, the speed rating, sidewall, compound etc, plus the tread pattern. As @CapriRacer gave loads of examples that there is a LOT there. I agree that the actual experiences are also important to know how they perform in real-world testing. That said, I am only interested in learning about the tread pattern here. I am not interested in the looks but the functional advantages of certain tread patterns only.

Originally Posted by CapriRacer
Ah, something I spent a lot of time working on: Tread patterns.

So for the purposes of this discussion, I am only going to talk about the pattern itself, not the effect tire size, tread compound, the casing structure, etc. has on performance.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. If you have a write up on your website, with examples, pls link it. It would help immensely to understand every point you brought up in the post. If not, I will personally appreciate such a post.

That said, if I have to compare RT43 and Exclaim HPX, how should Exclaim perform differently compared to RT43, just looking at the treads There is no shortage of reviews of RT43 but not many for Exclaim HPX. Being close to NYC, a review of someone from FL or TX doesn't really help me for all-season purposes.

Altimax RT43
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Exclaim HPX
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Thanks again.

I know every one is saying you can't tell by looking but this may be one example of yes you can. Just looking at those two tells me the better tire for your area would be the General.

Another would be Cooper CS5.

Last edited by Duffyjr; 01/29/20 03:15 PM.

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