Honda/Multi-Vehicle ATF Comparison Chart

Idemitsu (the only one I emailed) seems confident that even though DW1 and H+ are not identical, that the performance aspects match. I suspect you'd get much the same answer from the other manuf's as well. So, either they're lying about it (doubt it) or they have some other special brew that hits the target they needed to....or they don't care and just slap a label on something and call it good (Again, not terribly likely given today's litigious society).
 
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Unless those companies have proprietary additives as FMs that they don't have to disclose.

Do analyses from the various labs ever report "Unknown substances - XX ppm" ? I've never seen that.
 
Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Unless those companies have proprietary additives as FMs that they don't have to disclose.
Do analyses from the various labs ever report "Unknown substances - XX ppm" ? I've never seen that.

No, not in this type of analysis. They only know what they test for.

And remember too that a typical UOA only tests for elements not "substances" so you also don't have any actual idea what the compounds were before they were decomposed into the elements. You can take an educated guess but an ICP analysis only reports elements. Sort of like taking a bag of crushed glass and trying to figure out what the vase looked like.

You can have multiple compounds that perform essentially the same function in a fluid that use different metallic elements for their composition. It is the compound that creates a fluid not necessarily the metallic element. That's what makes these types of comparisons somewhat meaningless. Different compounds can result in similar end results in the fluid's characteristics.
 
Quote
Idemitsu (the only one I emailed) seems confident that even though DW1 and H+ are not identical, that the performance aspects match. I suspect you'd get much the same answer from the other manuf's as well.....
I'd surmise the same regarding the other manufacturers.

As is now common knowledge at least for those that frequent bitog, NONE of the aftermarket ATFs are DW1 clones, ie,, identical to DW1 in chemical analysis. That includes the 'recommended for', 'suitable for' and 'formulated/engineered for' single use ATFs like H+ and Aisin. As there are multiple successful use anecdotes posted using many of them, imo a reasonable conclusion therefore would be more than one way to achieve positive results in original spec Z1 and DW1 applications. That being the case, imo ROI of any of the fluids would be a consideration.

The only nitpick I'd have with current OP spreadsheet is calling Aisin DW1. But considering they code name it ATFDW1, and Amazon titles it Honda DW1 ATF, understandable I suppose.

One other ATF that I would consider for either Z1 or DW1 applications would be Castrol Transmax Full Synthetic MV.
 
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Excellent information. Seems like the Magnesium additive really stands out in the Honda OEM fluid, why did they chose that specific additive over others?
Anyone know the reasons, seems to me like it is due to the unique design of the Honda automatic unit. They do have clutch packs like a traditional manual right?
So maybe helps limits dissolution of the friction material from just sitting in the fluid?

I also have another question, does anyone have a fresh fluid analysis of the old Honda Z-1 fluid?

I've never seen that but looked everywhere!


I addressed this in a thread in the White Papers Forum:

Originally Posted by Molakule
Transmission fluids are one of the most complex chemical mixtures in an automotive drive train.

Not many people are aware, but the presence of calcium and dispersant compounds in Step-Shift transmission fluids have only a secondary task, and this is for minor cleaning and dispercency, respectively, since there are no combustion products present in an AT fluid.

The main purpose of Calcium and dispersant compounds is to function as one of the many friction modifiers. The other friction modifiers are never shown in low cost analyses but compliment the total friction modification chemistry.

Even the selection of base oils have to be considered as to the effect of overall friction modification. I.e, the base oils, plus any additives, plus the type of VII have to considered in the finished formulation.


So in the Honda AMT's they needed a mix of chemistries to not only obtain a specific Friction Coefficient, but the Honda zinc levels also indicate they needed a certain level of Anti-Wear agents.
 
Originally Posted by Sayjac
The only nitpick I'd have with current OP spreadsheet is calling Aisin DW1. But considering they code name it ATFDW1, and Amazon titles it Honda DW1 ATF, understandable I suppose.
The sheet is 100% accurate in the naming. Aisin calls that fluid DW-1 so that's the proper name.

Quote
One other ATF that I would consider for either Z1 or DW1 applications would be Castrol Transmax Full Synthetic MV.
Did someone provide the analysis data for that fluid ? I'll look after I post this but it wasn't there yesterday when I looked.
 
Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by Sayjac
The only nitpick I'd have with current OP spreadsheet is calling Aisin DW1. But considering they code name it ATFDW1, and Amazon titles it Honda DW1 ATF, understandable I suppose.
The sheet is 100% accurate in the naming. Aisin calls that fluid DW-1 so that's the proper name.

Actually Aisin in their PDS say "AISIN ATF-DW1 Formulated for DW-1 Applications" so it is slightly different. The labels I saw online say "Automatic Transmission Fluid" and "Formulated for DW-1 Applications."
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule


I addressed this in a thread in the White Papers Forum:



The main purpose of Calcium and dispersant compounds is to function as one of the many friction modifiers. The other friction modifiers are never shown in low cost analyses but compliment the total friction modification chemistry.
.


But I don't think you elaborated on how magnesium factors into this. Honda OEM appears to be the only fluid that shows it in a significant amount. Can you
give a bit more detail? Thanks Mola!
beer3.gif
 
ATF-DW-1 or DW-1 ? I swear I saw a reference (in their documentation) to "DW-1" before I posted that.

Poking around their website, it looks like they now have just (2) ATFs, one for regular transmissions and one for CVTs. They have AFW/AFW+ and CFEx/CFB now. These may not be for North American markets yet though. Their sales sheet refers to vehicle models not normally offered here but they do list AFW/AFW+ for use in DW-1 and Z-1 applications.
 
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by MolaKule


I addressed this in a thread in the White Papers Forum:



The main purpose of Calcium and dispersant compounds is to function as one of the many friction modifiers. The other friction modifiers are never shown in low cost analyses but compliment the total friction modification chemistry.
.


But I don't think you elaborated on how magnesium factors into this. Honda OEM appears to be the only fluid that shows it in a significant amount. Can you
give a bit more detail? Thanks Mola!


I did address the magnesium element as well.

Calcium and or magnesium or the combination of the two functions as the majority Friction modifiers in the original Honda DW-1 fluid.

Look at any of the MTL fluids and you will see Calcium or Magnesium or a combination of two in significant levels. These calcium and magnesium elements are special compounds of calcium and magnesium and are used explicitly to modify engagement-disengagement friction coefficients, that is, they modify the Mu(v) curves.

IN ATF fluids, they act with the dispersant and other FM chemistry to arrive at specific friction coefficients for whatever type of clutches or clutch materials are used..

Quote
Not many people are aware, but the presence of calcium and dispersant compounds in Step-Shift transmission fluids have only a secondary task, and this is for minor cleaning and dispercency, respectively, since there are no combustion products present in an AT fluid.

The main purpose of Calcium and dispersant compounds is to function as one of the many friction modifiers. The other friction modifiers are never shown in low cost analyses but compliment the total friction modification chemistry.


The original Honda DW-1 formulators apparently recognized that in addition to the Calcium, they also needed this special Magnesium compound in order to arrive at the exact FM and Mu(v) curve they required.
 
Last edited:
Castrol Full Synthetic MV is a "suitable for Honda/Acura ATF-Z1, ATF DW-1" ATF thus the mention in my previous post as another option. Whether there has been an analysis posted this forum previously, unknown and irrelevant to me. Purpose for mention now noted. I do know that it has been mentioned often this forum as an option for DW1 and Z1 applications. Often comes with mention of bogo price promo at AAP or AZ.

As for the Aisin fluid, as correctly noted kschachn the actual bottle name is not "Aisin DW1". If one cares to be very specific, Aisin is the name at bottle label top with no mention of DW1 there. Lower on the bottle it says " Formulated for DW1 applications." as illustrated in the Amazon link. So for the sake of accuracy, "I" would call it Aisin 'for' DW1 as it's clearly not DW1. As specifically prefaced in previous post, I accept fair point to call it a nitpick.

Since Amazon linked, very obvious the Amazon Aisin entry title is misleading, and the bullet point "Genuine OEM automatic transmission fluid" now proven inaccurate multiple times. However as I've only seen that bullet point on Amazon, I'll put that on them not Aisin at this juncture.

Finally it can be noted the re: reply over this post here is specifically to me as a rationale/clarification a couple points in my previous post.
 
Originally Posted by Sayjac
As for the Aisin fluid, as correctly noted kschachn the actual bottle name is not "Aisin DW1". If one cares to be very specific, Aisin is the name at bottle label top with no mention of DW1 there.

Look at the bottle here: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/asn-atf-dw1/. Lower right says "Part no: ATF-DW1"

Same here, https://usaautomotivesupply.com/product/aisin-atf-dw1-12-quart-case/.

And here, https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8369636&jsn=3.

SDS lists the product name as "AISIN ATF-DW1 formulated for....". Generally speaking, the product name on an SDS has to match the name on the product so that people know they go together.
 
Previous referenced Amazon Aisin formulated for DW1 bottle shown. Note accurate as described in previous post. So in short I agree with kschachn's post noting distinctions of Aisin "Formulated 'for' DW1" Other information not quoted with no indication of snippet regarding Amazon entry misinformation also accurate as posted.

Bottom line, whatever one chooses to call the Aisin product, it's not DW1. That's what's most important for readers to know.

[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]
 
Too bad nobody publish their coefficient of friction, that's what I'd go with.

Regarding to why non OEM has a more DexIII like formula, my guess is as a business they want something that won't attract lawsuit. If someone put Honda fluid in a Toyota and it died then Honda usually won't get sued. If someone put an Aisin fluid in a Toyota because it has an Aisin transmission, then you bet someone will try to sue Aisin. The same goes for Valvoline and Idemitsu.

It is a better financial decision in terms of risk and economy of scale (one fluid for all), even if it means 1% of the people may have a reversible problem (i.e. it doesn't shift as good as OEM but it won't kill the transmission). This may even means they have to change more often or use better base / additive to make it last as long as OEM using syn blend base and cheaper additive.

I personally think since Maxlife have been on the market for so long and people don't have massive transmission failure, it is good enough but not the best, and 95% of the people out there can't tell the difference and don't keep their cars for more than 200k miles.
 
Last edited:
Quote
"**Please don't take these as gospel. They are likely sourced from a single sample size"

If the first three were taken from the ATF thread I posted these were tested by multiple labs.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Quote
"**Please don't take these as gospel. They are likely sourced from a single sample size"

If the first three were taken from the ATF thread I posted these were tested by multiple labs.

Updated.
Originally Posted by discountdon
VOA of Amsoil ATL ATF from 2012, please add to your spreadsheet OP:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3482776/1

Can't see the data as it was posted with photobucket.

Nevermind, got it.
 
Last edited:
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