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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: dave123] #5330719 01/23/20 09:29 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by dave123
I’d just like to know what makes a great system its a interesting subject.


Put simply: Good gear. I have a "great" set of speakers, I have a "great" amp. But they aren't together because my "decent" speakers sound better in our big room (living room) than them and are far more tolerant of being fed material that isn't of the best quality. Of course what constitutes great/good/acceptable...etc is all relative. My main speakers are a set of Paradigm Monitor 11's, which were the top speaker in Paradigm's lowest tier of speakers, they have (or had) two tiers above them. They are decent speakers in the sense they are clear, produce tight sound, excellent imaging, very full range and go incredibly loud. They are a little too warm if you are a purist; they colour the music a bit, but with what I listen to, this isn't a bad thing. My "great" speakers are a set of vintage B&W 802 S3's, which were their top of the line speaker. Their currently equivalent, the 802 D3 are $22K a pair, which is actually quite reasonable compared to other speakers, including their new Nautilus series, which are $60K. These are true reference-grade speakers and are what were used at Abbey Road. They are incredibly unforgiving when fed garbage; you'll hear every imperfection as their sound reproduction is absolutely superb, so they will equally delight when fed something of quality.

The amp driving the Paradigms is an older Bryston 4B which I had completely refreshed at Bryston, who are local. It's a dedicated 2-channel amp 270W/channel @ 8ohms. I used this to drive the B&W's originally and will likely pick up a 4B3 at some point and move the 4B back to the B&W's.

Pre-amp for analog content is a PS Audio unit, which has a lovely phono stage. My record player isn't anything special, just an old Aurex (Toshiba) SR-Q200 direct-drive unit which sounds surprisingly good. When I had that setup hooked up to the B&W's it was... interesting. It was very easy to discern recording quality and it made some stuff hard to listen to. I have an original UK pressing of Metallica's LOAD album which is absolutely brilliant; the best sounding vinyl I own, it absolutely came alive through the B&W's, the detail, the clarity, the depth, it was incredible. My repress of Ride the Lightning sounded like garbage. Flat, harsh...etc. You play the same stuff through the Paradigms, while LOAD still sounds incredible, Ride the Lightning sounds good, as does MoP and some other stuff. So that's why I have things configured the way I do.


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330740 01/23/20 10:12 PM
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Since you guys are name dropping...
Creek integrated, Monitor Audio Silvers and Velodyne sub.
I think I had a high end Sony CD player; don't remember.
For the $$, this is a superb sounding audio system.
These speakers reproduce the human voice better than anything I have ever heard...
Gotta have a clean signal.

Unfortunately I only use the Monitor Audios nowadays on the home theater.
Maybe I should plug something back in...


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330753 01/23/20 11:03 PM
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I wish I had my own place or a house not attached to a condo, I'd have a rocking system like you guys. Until then, I'm very content with my Sennheisers 598SE and Creative Zx listening on Tidal and Google music.

Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330828 01/24/20 06:55 AM
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My main gear is Fisher 504 from 1973. Had a couple of Marantz es but I like the Fisher. It's nothing like the beauty of the Marantz designs, though, but the sound is better

And yes, the lossy v. Lossless is quite noticeable.

I do FLACs

Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330829 01/24/20 06:55 AM
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alarmguy Offline
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^^agree YouTube is not lossless, no way but Im sure better then the standard stuff.

Interesting subject, I thought I was one of the few who really cared about the "downgrading" of audio sound since the invention of MP3s
At the same time, to truly have lossless takes a commitment and money.

There are some streaming services now that are close to lossless, maybe much in the same way as "lossless" Youtube type sound. I almost went with one but decided to go with a free couple month test of Apple Music, definitely not close to CD quality but I dont know, maybe its in my head, certainly sounds better then your standard MP3 or free music streaming.
Im just getting back into music (for lack of better words)
I was going to go with Tital High Fidelity Streaming but their dysfunctional website (was not off to a good start)would not give me a free 3 month offer that I had and tried to give me one month and why I ended up with Apple Music for a free 4 month trial.

Dont trash me, I am not saying Apple Music is close to CD or lossless but I will say I do strongly think is is a cut above your typical free streaming and will only get better in time if competition heats up they have the money to improve it. I have researched the subject and Apple does offer a slight edge over most others and form what I understand a tie with even more others. The only other choice after that seems to be Tital and well, Im not doing it.

I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.

I have found some of the low cost ones that do not advertise low bass sound more neutral then much more costly!
Im too embarrassed to tell you what brand I just bought for on ear. Just trying them out for fun but may keep them.

I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

Gosh, go back a couple decades and the true experts in audio would freak out over how sound is degraded and manipulated from what the artist produced.


Last edited by alarmguy; 01/24/20 07:12 AM.

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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330843 01/24/20 07:12 AM
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When your my age you probably cannot tell.


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Donald] #5330847 01/24/20 07:16 AM
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alarmguy Offline
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Originally Posted by Donald
When your my age you probably cannot tell.


I "hear" you ! Hey, what discouraged me for a few years after being into audio my whole life was ringing in my ears after an ear infection gone wild a decade back. (frustrating part was I did see a doctor before this happened)
Anyway, in the past, I guess I got used to the ringing to the point where it doesnt bother me anymore, at one point, in dead quiet with headphones on it would drive me nuts and gave them up trying.


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: alarmguy] #5330855 01/24/20 07:31 AM
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Quattro Pete Offline
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.
Not sure what your definition of "low cost" is, but you may want to check out Philips SHP9500. They were a little too flat for me as I do like a little bit of bass emphasis, but it sounds like they may align well with your listening preferences. They're about $60 new. They are open back though.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


As for in-ear, I'd recommend TinAudio T2. I think they were around $30 when I got them. They may be a little higher nowadays.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


2002 530i   2015 Q5 3.0T   2018 Charger SRT
Re: Lossless audio music [Re: alarmguy] #5330867 01/24/20 07:52 AM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
^^agree YouTube is not lossless, no way but Im sure better then the standard stuff.

Interesting subject, I thought I was one of the few who really cared about the "downgrading" of audio sound since the invention of MP3s
At the same time, to truly have lossless takes a commitment and money.

There are some streaming services now that are close to lossless, maybe much in the same way as "lossless" Youtube type sound. I almost went with one but decided to go with a free couple month test of Apple Music, definitely not close to CD quality but I dont know, maybe its in my head, certainly sounds better then your standard MP3 or free music streaming.
Im just getting back into music (for lack of better words)
I was going to go with Tital High Fidelity Streaming but their dysfunctional website (was not off to a good start)would not give me a free 3 month offer that I had and tried to give me one month and why I ended up with Apple Music for a free 4 month trial.

Dont trash me, I am not saying Apple Music is close to CD or lossless but I will say I do strongly think is is a cut above your typical free streaming and will only get better in time if competition heats up they have the money to improve it. I have researched the subject and Apple does offer a slight edge over most others and form what I understand a tie with even more others. The only other choice after that seems to be Tital and well, Im not doing it.

I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.

I have found some of the low cost ones that do not advertise low bass sound more neutral then much more costly!
Im too embarrassed to tell you what brand I just bought for on ear. Just trying them out for fun but may keep them.

I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

Gosh, go back a couple decades and the true experts in audio would freak out over how sound is degraded and manipulated from what the artist produced.



B&W produces headphones, they sound like they should be right up your alley.


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: alarmguy] #5330873 01/24/20 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.
One thing about this, how can we know for sure what sound the artist truly intended? Short of being present in the recording studio when the album was recorded, how can we tell?

On the other hand, when you go to a concert, you experience thunderous chest pounding amounts of bass that most home audio systems or headphones can't even come close to replicating. Alas, concerts are meant for general entertainment and less for accuracy/critical listening, so that isn't really a valid point of reference either, IMO.

My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330894 01/24/20 08:33 AM
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--
My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.
--

Exactly. I wouldn't want to reproduce a Slayer concert in my living room.

Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Quattro Pete] #5330897 01/24/20 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by alarmguy
I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.
Not sure what your definition of "low cost" is, but you may want to check out Philips SHP9500.


A friend at work got those and the SQ and build is excellent for the price.

If you don't want to spend over 35 bucks I would recommend the Samson SR850 with stock velour pads.


Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 01/24/20 09:00 AM.

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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: Cujet] #5330920 01/24/20 09:02 AM
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Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Really Killer vinyl playback and not a stupid 50 thousand dollar idiot-phile rig either,


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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: ARCOgraphite] #5331021 01/24/20 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Yup, good stuff. Nice setup.


BTW, here is another HQ track that is commonly used to audition speakers in audiophile community. I'm not much of an audiophile, but I always play it (the FLAC version, not the Youtube version) on any new speakers I get, along with a handful of other well produced tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-h6MoF7HLA



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Re: Lossless audio music [Re: alarmguy] #5331056 01/24/20 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.


I've have [had] 5 pairs of Sennheisers and the over-the-ear ones seem to be the most consistent with quality. I started with the HD558 and gave those away when I got a pair of HD598s for home and I currently use a pair of HD428s at work. Their earbuds I've tried were the Momentums which met their untimely demise when I left the earbuds dangling out my car door on the way to the gym. Replaced those with CX300s which I returned after a week (HORRIBLE sound.)

Have you looked at Klipsch yet? Their quality is on-par with Sennheisers from my experience with a nice warm mid/highs and no boomy lows either.

Last edited by Pew; 01/24/20 12:35 PM.
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