I submit that an EV is a fossil fuel vehicle when charged off the US grid

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Most of our power generation is from coal or natural gas in the US. Therefore, an electric vehicle isn't really purely "green." Charging it burns coal or natural gas. Not to mention the effect on the environment of lithium mining in developing nations.
 
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I dunno. Most of those MPGe claims seem very high, like 100 MPGe. But I'm not sure what the well-to-wheels analysis is currently running--is MPGe well to wheels, or just outlet to wheels?

An electric power plan is quite efficient; the transmissions lines so-so, and the car itself quite. But I don't know how the compare.

Thus an EV could be green(er). If less oil has to be pumped per mile that it moves. Lifecycle costs could be interesting too. Batteries with toxic materials vs toxic emissions from the tailpipe.
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I'd have to read some articles to just get familiar with the ways to look at it.
 
I think it safe to say that when electric cars are plugged in, natural gas fired generation most commonly increases to meet the demand. Coal and nuclear are based loaded, wind and solar aren't dispatchable. Therefore EV's are powered by gas-by-wire. Not all fossil fuels are equal in terms of environmental impact, natural gas is a lot better than gasoline in terms of carbon and other emissions.

As with most things, the truth is in the middle. EV's are not totally green and renewable based, but they do have less environmental impact overall. We have natural gas coming out our ears and it is about 1/5 the cost of oil on an equivalent basis, so using it domestically is a good idea.
 
OP, I concur. +1, IBTL
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I would posit that there is plenty of information to show that over the cradle-to-grave analysis, EVs are not any more environmentally friendly than ICEs, other than the fact that they kick the "visible" pollution can down the block to the power stations. I also posit that considering we already have several states with rolling brownouts and other grid concerns, introducing EVs at the proposed rates will far outstrip supply. Therefore electricity rates will skyrocket even further, and people with EVs will either be stuck at home because they can't pay the electric bill, or we shall bring the grid crashing down in a way that cripples a large area. Only way EVs make "grid" sense is with individual charging stations of solar or wind power at each owner's site, because there's no way our current supply can absorb another 100+ something GW of load. There was an article in Fuels & Lubes about lithium supply and the fact they are looking at mining something like 150GW of lithium in the next 5 years. The energy has to come from somewhere to recharge those darn things! SMH @ people with blinders on...
 
People are mostly easy to fool.. The pollution is over the mountain range so the pollution doesn't exist
 
It's orders of magnitude greener than an ICE. It's even better on a cost basis vs ICE.

Yes lithium mining generates vast amount of localized pollution (primarily the high desert in Chile) but its not comparable to the amount of heavy metal pollution generated by coal mining and the air pollution generated by refineries when they flare product.
 
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Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Most of our power generation is from coal or natural gas in the US. Therefore, an electric vehicle isn't really purely "green." Charging it burns coal or natural gas. Not to mention the effect on the environment of lithium mining in developing nations.


I call BS

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner

Refineries use about as much electricity to make a gallon of gasoline as is required to drive an EV 20 miles, the supply side of gasoline makes more pollution than your car makes burning that gallon of fuel.

On EVs ...
EVEN where I live
Local energy requirements are still covered by 90% hydro and nuclear.

"Our Coal" plants are here because of lax local environmental regs that allows other areas to import our comparatively cheap electricity.

Power generated here goes as far as Canada to the north and Illinois to the south.

Sadly the recent coal hybrid plants were just a government subsided cash grab
Other areas use our coal plants while we get zero benefit and also are forced to pay extra on our bills for their construction costs.

We went from 3 cent baseline electricity with a $9.99 fee to 9-11 cent electricity with a $50 fee over a period of 20 years and worse yet our population and energy use are falling meaning zero need for these extra plants.
 
I would imagine a fair number do what Jeff does with direct solar.

Will be interesting to see if the EV Hummer works out … Mall Crawlers get ready !
 
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Depends on location and other variables.
I did solar, so the panels generate power to the grid during the day and I take it at night.
My net is negative; I generate more than I use.
I pay $15 per month to be on the PGE grid and i have a yearly true up. My true up is zero.

But depending on what your sources are, there is at least some truth to what you say.
Additionally, solar panel manufacture is not green.

Where does it go from here? There is huge opportunity in Renewable Energy.
I say America should be the leader.
Renewable Energy Job Creation
 
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Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Most of our power generation is from coal or natural gas in the US. Therefore, an electric vehicle isn't really purely "green." Charging it burns coal or natural gas. Not to mention the effect on the environment of lithium mining in developing nations.


I call BS

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner

Refineries use about as much electricity to make a gallon of gasoline as is required to drive an EV 20 miles, the supply side of gasoline makes more pollution than your car makes burning that gallon of fuel.

On EVs ...
EVEN where I live
Local energy requirements are still covered by 90% hydro and nuclear.

"Our Coal" plants are here because of lax local environmental regs that allows other areas to import our comparatively cheap electricity.

Power generated here goes as far as Canada to the north and Illinois to the south.

Sadly the recent coal hybrid plants were just a government subsided cash grab
Other areas use our coal plants while we get zero benefit and also are forced to pay extra on our bills for their construction costs.

We went from 3 cent baseline electricity with a $9.99 fee to 9-11 cent electricity with a $50 fee over a period of 20 years and worse yet our population and energy use are falling meaning zero need for these extra plants.


Your article looks assumes EV's are charged by rolled-in average generation, not generation on the margin.

Refiners aren't large electricity users relative to the volume of oil they process. Please cite the basis for your statement.

You live in Wisconsin? Please cite the basis for saying Wisconsin is 90% hydro and coal. Last I knew Wisconsin is pretty flat. We can't all move to eastern Canada to advantage ourselves of hydro so we can drive around pollution free.
 
There is still lots of "not in my backyard" with all types of energy …
Former boss lost serious property values to a wind farm next to his land … even though he said no …
 
There is the problem of lithium and its disposal. There will need to be non lithium batteries that work for EVs to supplant ICE.

I used to live by a huge plant that made windmill blades. It takes 30 years for windmills to be environmentally neutral accounting for their manufactur, then it is time to replace them.

Solar panels have a limited life and again the metal composition, and disposal issues.

All this "green" stuff is not really so.
 
Originally Posted by wallyuwl
There is the problem of lithium and its disposal. There will need to be non lithium batteries that work for EVs to supplant ICE.

I used to live by a huge plant that made windmill blades. It takes 30 years for windmills to be environmentally neutral accounting for their manufactur, then it is time to replace them.

Solar panels have a limited life and again the metal composition, and disposal issues.

All this "green" stuff is not really so.


Indeed it is a concern which is why EV batteries are being re-purposed for storage and manufacturers are slowing reducing the amount of heavy metals (Cobalt, Lithium). In any case the reality is that although these technologies many not be "green" they are "greener" than coal/oil etc.

Btw..Solar panels have an unlimited lifespan. Their peak power may dwindle slightly but it's essentially negligible. Disposal issues are an issue of course.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Indeed it is a concern which is why EV batteries are being re-purposed for storage and manufacturers are slowing reducing the amount of heavy metals (Cobalt, Lithium). In any case the reality is that although these technologies many not be "green" they are "greener" than coal/oil etc.

Well first off, lithium is not a heavy metal. In fact it is the lightest of all metals.

But after that, how do you reduce the use of lithium in a lithium-ion battery?
 
LoneRanger, you bring up a great point.
One point of view is, the EV does not pollute; rather it is the generation of the electricity that powers the EV is the issue.
The same is true of turning on the lights in your house, running the AC, tv, etc. It ain't the car.

So if we want to address climate change, if we want to go green, we need to address the sources of energy as well as their uses.
Your thoughts?
 
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