Straight 30w in Hot Climates

I've run both VR-1 SAE 30 and SAE 40 in my MG in the summer. The manual says either SAE 30 or 20W-50 depending on your local temperature.

Honestly, I'd probably run either all year if I didn't have to worry about low temperatures. Among other things, with the tired rings in that engine(I'm tearing down a spare engine now that I hope to have finished with the rebuild in the next few months) I got a lot less blow by. Also, in summer stop-and-go, my oil pressure seemed to stay a fair bit steadier than it does with 20W-50. I don't have a way of directly measuring the oil temperature in that engine, but figure that dropping oil pressure accompanied by rising coolant temperature is as good of an indication as any that the oil is warming up a fair bit.

If I read the datasheets correctly, VR-1(silver bottle) essentially has the same additive pack in both monograde and multigrade. Oil engines love the high levels of ZDDP in it, although catalytic converters may not.

I haven't used it in a while because, here, it's not uncommon to see sub-zero and over 100ºF in the same calendar year. The car is in an unheated detached garage, and I want to be able to start it at any time of the year. That means I end up dumping the monograde in October or so. Also, others have mentioned the cost-20W-50s are often on sale, including VR-1, while the monograde versions almost never are. Cost IS significant to me because even though it blows out less monograde than it does 20W-50, it's still enough that I rely on my inexpensively bought stashes of oil(or Supertech 20W-50 in a pinch) to keep it fed.
 
Originally Posted by SR5
OK, here is the thread I was looking for

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/975793/

It shows wear data from an SAE paper that compares an SAE 30 monogrades to a 10W30 multi-grade. The graph clearly shows less wear from the monograde at both cold and hot operating temperatures, as in below or above normal engine temps. At normal engines temperature, they perform much the same.


Here is the graph, from the thread started by member G-MAN


[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Thanks for the graph but unless we know it's source and date it's not credible. It looks like it's from a 1960's textbook. Any modern 10w30 will blow away the earlier version.
smile.gif


It's an SAE paper...what do you base your second statement on that renders the trends there invalid ?

Age of the test ?

We aren't writing much new stuff on Newtonian Physics...
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Thanks for the graph but unless we know it's source and date it's not credible. It looks like it's from a 1960's textbook. Any modern 10w30 will blow away the earlier version.
smile.gif


It's an SAE papper...what do you base your second statement on that renderes the trends there invalid ?

Age of the test ?

We aren't writing much new stuff on Newtonian Physics...

Mid 90's? 25 years ago. That would be API SH. Not interested.



SH API Classification.PNG
 
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Thanks for the graph but unless we know it's source and date it's not credible. It looks like it's from a 1960's textbook. Any modern 10w30 will blow away the earlier version.
smile.gif


It's an SAE papper...what do you base your second statement on that renderes the trends there invalid ?

Age of the test ?

We aren't writing much new stuff on Newtonian Physics...

Mid 90's? 25 years ago. That would be API SH. Not interested.

Asked for evidence, not an obsolescence status...

G-Man demonstrated pretty good performance out of a monograde 20 in a modern engine if you care to look at it.
 
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot

Mid 90's? 25 years ago. That would be API SH. Not interested.


Which is why I have been talking about modern API SN or SN-Plus monogrades, based on Group II / Group II+ / Group III base stock.
 
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Look at this, two Pennzoil SAE 30 monogrades, first one is API SN and the second is API CF/SF. The first is dated 2015, the second 2016. Both full detergent monogrades.

(Pennzoil SAE30 SN)

(Pennzoil SAE30 API SF/CF)

Compare their Properties:

API
SN
CF/SF

Pour Point (D97)
-30C
-9C

Flash Point
232C (D93)
238C (D92)

KV100 (D445)
11.4 cSt
11.03 cSt

KV40 (D445)
98.0 cSt
98.56 cSt

VI (D2270)
105
96

The big difference is in the Pour Point -30 C for SN and -9 C for SF.

I think what we are looking at here is an old Group I monograde (SF and -9C) verses a modern Group II monograde (SN and -30C).

We need to realise that these new SAE30's are very different from the old school stuff our grandparents used.
 
SR5...wasted effort on that one mate...you are right..he won't accept it...

Looking at the appendices for cross blending, the oil companies can make a straight 30 (or 20) cheaply...once the tests are met on an oil, provided that the HTHS is thicker, the manufacturer is allowed to read across a pass in the wear tests...

So...if a GrII/III 5W20 passes the sequence IVA wear tests...same add pack in a 30 is an automatic pass...more HTHS, acknowledged to offer more protection...can't qualify a 10W30, and read back to 5W20.
 
Here is another one, Valvoline SAE30 Daily Protection.

From their 2019 data sheet:
"Valvoline SAE30 ... offer excellent protection to gasoline engines operating under high temperatures and heavy-duty service (hauling trailers, boats or RVs for sustained periods)." .... "is approved and licensed for the newly adopted API SN PLUS classification, protecting GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) engines from low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI)."

API SN and SN-Plus
Pour Point KV100 = 10.3 cSt
KV40 = 82.0 cSt
VI = 107
TBN = 7.5
Zinc = 830 ppm
SA = 0.8 %


(Valvoline SAE30 SN-Plus Link)
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Looking at the appendices for cross blending, the oil companies can make a straight 30 (or 20) cheaply...once the tests are met on an oil, provided that the HTHS is thicker, the manufacturer is allowed to read across a pass in the wear tests...

So...if a GrII/III 5W20 passes the sequence IVA wear tests...same add pack in a 30 is an automatic pass...more HTHS, acknowledged to offer more protection...can't qualify a 10W30, and read back to 5W20.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with member SonofJoe, the oil formulator. He said oils are often developed as a matrix, such the the Valvoline link above which features various monogrades and multi-grades. Find one add pack that works for all of them, then apply it to everything. Cheaper development costs, with the advantage that the monogrades are often over formulated and carry more adds than the minimum requirements to pass the tests. A good thing for the oil and the consumer.

Here, found it. We were talking about the MAG-1 SAE30

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
This does look like a decent oil; probably a 15W30 so even cold-flow won't be too skanky.

Did you notice the 0.3% sulphur? That's all from the ZDDP. It says this oil is made from Group II (not sulphur containing Group I) so it will be very stable.

Also, I'd hazard a guess that this is a product of an SN matrix formulation program. The DI in the pack will have been set to handle something like a 5W30 (ie containing VII). As such, that DI pack will give you a freebie, 'beyond the minimum' boost when used in a monograde.

I miss Joe.
 
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
With terrible experimental data. Might as well flip a coin. I'm done with this. Sayonara.

Generally the language used when someone has been presented with technical data that they wish to willfully ignore.
 
Originally Posted by SR5
Nice work 4WD

Ya know it ain't often 4wd does work period... Much less nice work.... So this is a very note worthy event... Mark this down on the calendar
lol.gif
 
Some great links in this thread. It's been a great read.

Our Mondeo is coming off the road and will be for summer use only. I'm very tempted to go with a monograde for it. Valvoline in the UK make a fleet heavy duty 30 weight which I may get ordered. The car gets driven hard and I would like to do a few track days in the future in it, monogrades seem perfect for hard use.
 
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