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German labeling. #5317894 01/09/20 04:21 PM
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sloinker Offline OP
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I see that many of the German manufactured synthetic motor oils have gone to class III like all the name brands here in the states. They also call themselves synthetic but with a HC designation pointing out they are at least partially class III. The non class III synthetics say they are full synthetic. I wish that the rest of the world would follow suit with this type of labeling. Not dissing class III oil at all. Just like the fact that consumers know what they are paying for up front.

Last edited by sloinker; 01/09/20 04:21 PM. Reason: Slipped in Mopar Juice

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Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5317902 01/09/20 04:31 PM
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simple_gifts Offline
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Quote

Just like the fact that consumers know what they are paying for up front.


They do; it is marked with the performance specifications on the bottle.

Are you advocating Nissans "must use ester oil" approach? That seemed to generate more ridicule than sales. j/k

What Group oil? concerns < .001 % of motorists and probably about 3% of BITOGr's JMO


Last edited by simple_gifts; 01/09/20 04:32 PM.

2004 Prius; 126K; ALM
2007 Yaris 103K ATM
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Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5317915 01/09/20 04:45 PM
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kschachn Offline
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I for one am glad the rest of the world does not require such labeling. As simple_gifts notes above it is not the base stock composition that defines the oil's ultimate performance, it is instead the approvals, certifications and licenses that the oil obtains which prove and document the performance. I have a minor in chemistry and I could formulate a very poor motor oil that is 100% PAO whcih would qualify for being labeled as Voll-Synthese. How would this benefit the consumer? Can you demonstrate somehow that every motor oil in Germany that is labelled as Voll-Synthese is superior to some other one labeled as synthese technology? If not, then why does the rule exist?

I also think that at some point this requirement will come back to haunt the German consumers. We already see where high-VI Group III base oils are matching and may some day surpass the performance of the traditional PAO based oil. As technology marches on, rules like this will eventually be of more harm than good. It seems as though the individuals who argue most for such labeling are also those who argue most for a brand that would qualify for Voll-Synthese labeling here.

And by the way there are already numerous threads on this subject all of which have been thoroughly sliced, diced and dissected by this board. There is zero need for yet another one. It's also not "class" it is a group designation which doesn't really apply to formulated oils but instead to base oil interchange guidelines under API 1509 Appendix E.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
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1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5317916 01/09/20 04:45 PM
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Farnsworth Offline
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I thought they put Oil For Auto on the bottle, then Made in Germany and that is enough.

Re: German labeling. [Re: kschachn] #5317926 01/09/20 04:58 PM
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OilReport99 Offline
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Originally Posted by kschachn
I for one am glad the rest of the world does not require such labeling. As simple_gifts notes above it is not the base stock composition that defines the oil's ultimate performance, it is instead the approvals, certifications and licenses that the oil obtains which prove and document the performance. I have a minor in chemistry and I could formulate a very poor motor oil that is 100% PAO whcih would qualify for being labeled as Voll-Synthese. How would this benefit the consumer? Can you demonstrate somehow that every motor oil in Germany that is labelled as Voll-Synthese is superior to some other one labeled as synthese technology?

I also think that at some point this requirement will come back to haunt the German consumers. We already see where high-VI Group III base oils are matching and may some day surpass the performance of the traditional PAO based oil. As technology marches on, rules like this will eventually be of more harm than good. It seems as though the individuals who argue most for such labeling are also those who argue most for a brand that would qualify for Voll-Synthese labeling here.

And by the way there are already numerous threads on this subject all of which have been thoroughly sliced, diced and dissected on this board. There is zero need for yet another one.


That's all the consumer should care for. Why muddy the waters with information irrelevant to the performance of the lube on a particular engine. As far as "knowing what you're paying for", it's good enough for the consumer to know they're paying for a product that has been approved, certified and licensed to use in their engines. And last but not least, consumers set the prices - no way around that rule.

Last edited by OilReport99; 01/09/20 05:12 PM.
Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5317962 01/09/20 05:37 PM
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edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted by sloinker
I see that many of the German manufactured synthetic motor oils have gone to class III like all the name brands here in the states. They also call themselves synthetic but with a HC designation pointing out they are at least partially class III. The non class III synthetics say they are full synthetic. I wish that the rest of the world would follow suit with this type of labeling. Not dissing class III oil at all. Just like the fact that consumers know what they are paying for up front.

Liqui Moly was one of the first to jump on HC game in 1997. I remember Liqui Moly from end of 1990's in Europe advertising HC as a really good thing for an engine.


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Re: German labeling. [Re: kschachn] #5317973 01/09/20 05:43 PM
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geeman789 Offline
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Originally Posted by kschachn


... it is not the base stock composition that defines the oil's ultimate performance, it is instead the approvals, certifications and licenses that the oil obtains which prove and document the performance.



Sure. But seriously, this is getting out of hand too. Do we really need separate BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche etc. approvals ? Are the various brands engines THAT different ( no, their not ) ...

Does GM and Ford need their own spec ? Why don't the Japanese brands have their own oil spec ? That is probably coming soon, too.

I wonder sometimes how much of this is based on the oil's actual performance, and how much is marketing, or more likely, licensing fees.


2011 SUBARU Impreza 5-door manual / 2016 HONDA Pilot / 2011 MAZDA 2 auto
Re: German labeling. [Re: geeman789] #5317983 01/09/20 05:50 PM
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kschachn Offline
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Originally Posted by geeman789
Sure. But seriously, this is getting out of hand too. Do we really need separate BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche etc. approvals ? Are the various brands engines THAT different ( no, their not ) ...

Does GM and Ford need their own spec ? Why don't the Japanese brands have their own oil spec ? That is probably coming soon, too.

I wonder sometimes how much of this is based on the oil's actual performance, and how much is marketing, or more likely, licensing fees.

I don't think it matters much since many oils meet multiple similar specifications or approvals, and most of them are inexpensive. Unless it is some weird new approval I can walk into any Walmart and walk out with an oil that meets many relevant specifications and approvals.

Besides the alternative would be to live in the OP's world where performance is gauged solely by the base stock composition. No thanks.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5318050 01/09/20 06:39 PM
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OilReport99 Offline
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Thread's running out of fuel.

Last edited by M56959; 01/09/20 08:00 PM.
Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5318096 01/09/20 07:13 PM
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simple_gifts Offline
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Quote

I wish that the rest of the world would follow suit



Some ideas they have just aren't worth following, filling dirigibles with hydrogen being another.


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2006 B2300;137K;ALM


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Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5318104 01/09/20 07:22 PM
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Quattro Pete Offline
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Not sure where you're going with this, but kschachn is correct. Being all group IV does not necessarily translate into great performance, so it's fairly useless information. There is more to an oil composition than just base oil. And the best determinant of final product's performance is the tests that it passed, which is reflected in the specifications/approvals that it carries.

What you're paying for (or what you SHOULD BE paying for) is the oil's tested performance, and not some feel-good ingredient that has no relation to actual performance.

That German classification was introduced several decades ago when modern performance specs weren't available. I don't think it is useful anymore.

At the end of the day, we're all free to spend our money any way we wish. If you feel that buying group IV ingredients is where you should spend your money, do it. Being able to sleep better at night is priceless.


Last edited by M56959; 01/09/20 08:01 PM.

2002 530i   2015 Q5 3.0T   2018 Charger SRT
Re: German labeling. [Re: sloinker] #5318135 01/09/20 08:03 PM
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M56959 Offline
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Beat to death already.

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