Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted by N Heat
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
joekingcorvette said:
It doesn't really matter which oil you use
- Thread starter PWMDMD
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I have to agree with the OP. I always used Havoline conventional because that's what my dad (40 year master auto tech) always used. He also beat into my head that "oil is cheap, engines are not" ideology and to change it often. Then I found some sweet rebates on name brand full synthetics for about the price of the conventional I always ran and made the switch. Now since I drive an ecoboost that I tow with and knowing they're hard on oil, I have done a lot more research and came to the conclusion that as long as I run a quality synthetic that's SN + rated, it truly does not matter what brand I use. Period. I do still subscribe to the "oil is cheap, engines are not" thoughts when it comes to OCI, and change it often, but haven't heard one legitimate argument on how changing more often is less desirable than running to 7 or 10k. My career is in industrial engineering and some of our gearbox oil changes can run well into the thousands of dollars, so it makes sense to do oil sampling and stretch changes out as much as possible. But can't see myself trying to squeeze every last mile out of a $30 oil change when I intend to keep my truck >10 years.
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Originally Posted by SDGolden
I have to agree with the OP. I always used Havoline conventional because that's what my dad (40 year master auto tech) always used. He also beat into my head that "oil is cheap, engines are not" ideology and to change it often. Then I found some sweet rebates on name brand full synthetics for about the price of the conventional I always ran and made the switch. Now since I drive an ecoboost that I tow with and knowing they're hard on oil, I have done a lot more research and came to the conclusion that as long as I run a quality synthetic that's SN + rated, it truly does not matter what brand I use. Period. I do still subscribe to the "oil is cheap, engines are not" thoughts when it comes to OCI, and change it often, but haven't heard one legitimate argument on how changing more often is less desirable than running to 7 or 10k. My career is in industrial engineering and some of our gearbox oil changes can run well into the thousands of dollars, so it makes sense to do oil sampling and stretch changes out as much as possible. But can't see myself trying to squeeze every last mile out of a $30 oil change when I intend to keep my truck >10 years.
Some people on here seem to feel good when they save a couple coffees $ out of running their oil as long as possible, it's fine if their schedule is that tight that it's hard to squeeze I an oil change...but when they give us cr&p for hurting the environment by draining oil too early and then they upgrade to a new vehicle every 5-10 years (which helps the extended oil changes to not hurt them) they are probably hurting the environment just as much as us changing the oil early because we can do it at home on a weekend and want our car to last 40+ years. Building new cars and scrapping old ones both cause pollution.
I have to agree with the OP. I always used Havoline conventional because that's what my dad (40 year master auto tech) always used. He also beat into my head that "oil is cheap, engines are not" ideology and to change it often. Then I found some sweet rebates on name brand full synthetics for about the price of the conventional I always ran and made the switch. Now since I drive an ecoboost that I tow with and knowing they're hard on oil, I have done a lot more research and came to the conclusion that as long as I run a quality synthetic that's SN + rated, it truly does not matter what brand I use. Period. I do still subscribe to the "oil is cheap, engines are not" thoughts when it comes to OCI, and change it often, but haven't heard one legitimate argument on how changing more often is less desirable than running to 7 or 10k. My career is in industrial engineering and some of our gearbox oil changes can run well into the thousands of dollars, so it makes sense to do oil sampling and stretch changes out as much as possible. But can't see myself trying to squeeze every last mile out of a $30 oil change when I intend to keep my truck >10 years.
Some people on here seem to feel good when they save a couple coffees $ out of running their oil as long as possible, it's fine if their schedule is that tight that it's hard to squeeze I an oil change...but when they give us cr&p for hurting the environment by draining oil too early and then they upgrade to a new vehicle every 5-10 years (which helps the extended oil changes to not hurt them) they are probably hurting the environment just as much as us changing the oil early because we can do it at home on a weekend and want our car to last 40+ years. Building new cars and scrapping old ones both cause pollution.
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
... But, agreed A 20-grade will move into 30 grade territory when cold ...
Lets see ...
An average 30 grade oil is around 10-11 cSt at 100*C ( 212*F )
At 0*C ( 32*F ) , so cold, but not super cold, an average 20 grade oil is around 450 + cSt.
That is over FORTY times thicker than the 30 grade at operating temps.
You clearly do not understand how much oil thickens when " cold ... " . And engines still run. You constantly vouch for thin oils in modern engines, but seemingly fail to understand that the oil, for the first 20 minutes or longer after a cold start, is way thicker than spec.
WAYYYYYYYY thicker. And the engines don't just blow up ...
... But, agreed A 20-grade will move into 30 grade territory when cold ...
Lets see ...
An average 30 grade oil is around 10-11 cSt at 100*C ( 212*F )
At 0*C ( 32*F ) , so cold, but not super cold, an average 20 grade oil is around 450 + cSt.
That is over FORTY times thicker than the 30 grade at operating temps.
You clearly do not understand how much oil thickens when " cold ... " . And engines still run. You constantly vouch for thin oils in modern engines, but seemingly fail to understand that the oil, for the first 20 minutes or longer after a cold start, is way thicker than spec.
WAYYYYYYYY thicker. And the engines don't just blow up ...
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Originally Posted by geeman789
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
... But, agreed A 20-grade will move into 30 grade territory when cold ...
Lets see ...
An average 30 grade oil is around 10-11 cSt at 100*C ( 212*F )
At 0*C ( 32*F ) , so cold, but not super cold, an average 20 grade oil is around 450 + cSt.
That is over FORTY times thicker than the 30 grade at operating temps.
You clearly do not understand how much oil thickens when " cold ... " . And engines still run. You constantly vouch for thin oils in modern engines, but seemingly fail to understand that the oil, for the first 20 minutes or longer after a cold start, is way thicker than spec.
WAYYYYYYYY thicker. And the engines don't just blow up ...
Oh thanks for teaching me that, I never knew!
Would not you say engines usually blow up from high rpm, low oil pressure, not from seeing somewhat viscous oil during warmup.
But engines, they surely run suboptimal whilst warming up. Did you know that Piston - wall clearance is wider at cold start? MIght that benefit a more viscous oil?
Back to some initial assertion.
I'm talking about after warmup. That a 20 will ill be firmly in the 10-15 cSt range at a typ 175F running fully warmed on a cold day
I've run the experiments on MY cars with VVT that were running "odd" and I've found the right grade for the climate and a good flowing filter made a BIG difference in overall performance.
Non VVT, not so much. I'm sure different manufacturers have different hydraulic logic controls and programming that goes beyond the basic "retard the intake 10 deg at idle", and retard cam 5 deg / 1K rpm above 2500 rpm with low vacuum signal. Maybe they can watch the cam position and adjust the spool to keep the cam where it should be REGARDLESS of viscosity now. I know the 40 grade oil in my VW made the car undriveable. - Or at least to me as a mech E and car guy who know HOW it should run.
And for the Bimmer guys, VANOS is a whole different helical screw mechanism than the garbage cam phasers most manufacturers put on their engines.
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
... But, agreed A 20-grade will move into 30 grade territory when cold ...
Lets see ...
An average 30 grade oil is around 10-11 cSt at 100*C ( 212*F )
At 0*C ( 32*F ) , so cold, but not super cold, an average 20 grade oil is around 450 + cSt.
That is over FORTY times thicker than the 30 grade at operating temps.
You clearly do not understand how much oil thickens when " cold ... " . And engines still run. You constantly vouch for thin oils in modern engines, but seemingly fail to understand that the oil, for the first 20 minutes or longer after a cold start, is way thicker than spec.
WAYYYYYYYY thicker. And the engines don't just blow up ...
Oh thanks for teaching me that, I never knew!
Would not you say engines usually blow up from high rpm, low oil pressure, not from seeing somewhat viscous oil during warmup.
But engines, they surely run suboptimal whilst warming up. Did you know that Piston - wall clearance is wider at cold start? MIght that benefit a more viscous oil?
Back to some initial assertion.
I'm talking about after warmup. That a 20 will ill be firmly in the 10-15 cSt range at a typ 175F running fully warmed on a cold day
I've run the experiments on MY cars with VVT that were running "odd" and I've found the right grade for the climate and a good flowing filter made a BIG difference in overall performance.
Non VVT, not so much. I'm sure different manufacturers have different hydraulic logic controls and programming that goes beyond the basic "retard the intake 10 deg at idle", and retard cam 5 deg / 1K rpm above 2500 rpm with low vacuum signal. Maybe they can watch the cam position and adjust the spool to keep the cam where it should be REGARDLESS of viscosity now. I know the 40 grade oil in my VW made the car undriveable. - Or at least to me as a mech E and car guy who know HOW it should run.
And for the Bimmer guys, VANOS is a whole different helical screw mechanism than the garbage cam phasers most manufacturers put on their engines.
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Some people on here seem to feel good when they save a couple coffees $ out of running their oil as long as possible, it's fine if their schedule is that tight that it's hard to squeeze I an oil change...but when they give us cr&p for hurting the environment by draining oil too early and then they upgrade to a new vehicle every 5-10 years (which helps the extended oil changes to not hurt them) they are probably hurting the environment just as much as us changing the oil early because we can do it at home on a weekend and want our car to last 40+ years. Building new cars and scrapping old ones both cause pollution.
Criticizing someone else's oci as wasteful while one drives a fossil fuel vehicle is pretty rich imo...but I'd imagine these people also believe you can be just a little bit pregnant? ...‚
#GlassHouses
Some people on here seem to feel good when they save a couple coffees $ out of running their oil as long as possible, it's fine if their schedule is that tight that it's hard to squeeze I an oil change...but when they give us cr&p for hurting the environment by draining oil too early and then they upgrade to a new vehicle every 5-10 years (which helps the extended oil changes to not hurt them) they are probably hurting the environment just as much as us changing the oil early because we can do it at home on a weekend and want our car to last 40+ years. Building new cars and scrapping old ones both cause pollution.
Criticizing someone else's oci as wasteful while one drives a fossil fuel vehicle is pretty rich imo...but I'd imagine these people also believe you can be just a little bit pregnant? ...‚
#GlassHouses
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The longer I read BITOG and the more UOAs I see the more I'm convinced you could use any quality oil in any viscosity for any normal application (possibly excluding track cars or extreme towing, etc) because it just doesn't matter. Honestly, when is the last time you saw any data to suggest oil brand, certs or even viscosity was the cause of any adverse outcome for an engine?
Depends on the individuals definition of quality but you're basically correct. Remember that time(miles) is a major component of oil performance. For example, obviously dino can't go the typical 10k mile OCI but it'll work on a 3k mile OCI.
The longer I read BITOG and the more UOAs I see the more I'm convinced you could use any quality oil in any viscosity for any normal application (possibly excluding track cars or extreme towing, etc) because it just doesn't matter. Honestly, when is the last time you saw any data to suggest oil brand, certs or even viscosity was the cause of any adverse outcome for an engine?
Depends on the individuals definition of quality but you're basically correct. Remember that time(miles) is a major component of oil performance. For example, obviously dino can't go the typical 10k mile OCI but it'll work on a 3k mile OCI.
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The longer I read BITOG and the more UOAs I see the more I'm convinced you could use any quality oil in any viscosity for any normal application (possibly excluding track cars or extreme towing, etc) because it just doesn't matter. Honestly, when is the last time you saw any data to suggest oil brand, certs or even viscosity was the cause of any adverse outcome for an engine?
Absolutely wrong,
You cant use any "quality oil" you need to use the correct API oil recommended by the manufacturer of the engine.
So you are right if that is what you mean! (just having fun here playing on words)
All oils of the same API (or any industry accepted standard) are equal in quality and it makes NO difference if it is $2. a quart Super Tech conventional or $12 a quart synthetic boutique oil. Its all the same to the engine and to the manufacturer of the engine, anything else is forum talk and speculation.
The longer I read BITOG and the more UOAs I see the more I'm convinced you could use any quality oil in any viscosity for any normal application (possibly excluding track cars or extreme towing, etc) because it just doesn't matter. Honestly, when is the last time you saw any data to suggest oil brand, certs or even viscosity was the cause of any adverse outcome for an engine?
Absolutely wrong,
You cant use any "quality oil" you need to use the correct API oil recommended by the manufacturer of the engine.
So you are right if that is what you mean! (just having fun here playing on words)
All oils of the same API (or any industry accepted standard) are equal in quality and it makes NO difference if it is $2. a quart Super Tech conventional or $12 a quart synthetic boutique oil. Its all the same to the engine and to the manufacturer of the engine, anything else is forum talk and speculation.
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Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
I agree with this statement. Note though that some brownish-goldish coloration can occur that's not varnish. Driven XP series oils is a good example. It contains loads of organic moly additive with very little in the way of dispersants so that moly gets tossed around the engine and layers on parts, making it look like varnish. You can wipe it with your finger though, and it'll come right off and show clean metal. That's a dedicated racing oil though, designed around the likes of NASCAR cup engines, and not something you're going to find in a common API oil off the shelf. I'm just giving an example what other things coloration of internals can come from.
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
I agree with this statement. Note though that some brownish-goldish coloration can occur that's not varnish. Driven XP series oils is a good example. It contains loads of organic moly additive with very little in the way of dispersants so that moly gets tossed around the engine and layers on parts, making it look like varnish. You can wipe it with your finger though, and it'll come right off and show clean metal. That's a dedicated racing oil though, designed around the likes of NASCAR cup engines, and not something you're going to find in a common API oil off the shelf. I'm just giving an example what other things coloration of internals can come from.
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
The main issue i have with pinning varnish on the lube is there are soooo many ways and reasons, aside from the oil, that determines how, when and where varnish is laid down. In some engines no matter what kind of lube you run, varnish will form. Anything from poor design, parts to maintenance can come into play but almost all the time the oil takes the bad rap for it. And varnish is largely not a problem unless it builds up in places where it effects a tight clearance like on a valve stem/seat or seal where it can prevent the seal from being lubricated. Obviously using a lube that has good thermally stability at high temps can help mitigate the problem but a lube can't compensate for a design problem. For example an engine that sees high valve/valve stem temps. There's a SAE paper out there that investigates this very problem.
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
The main issue i have with pinning varnish on the lube is there are soooo many ways and reasons, aside from the oil, that determines how, when and where varnish is laid down. In some engines no matter what kind of lube you run, varnish will form. Anything from poor design, parts to maintenance can come into play but almost all the time the oil takes the bad rap for it. And varnish is largely not a problem unless it builds up in places where it effects a tight clearance like on a valve stem/seat or seal where it can prevent the seal from being lubricated. Obviously using a lube that has good thermally stability at high temps can help mitigate the problem but a lube can't compensate for a design problem. For example an engine that sees high valve/valve stem temps. There's a SAE paper out there that investigates this very problem.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
The main issue i have with pinning varnish on the lube is there are soooo many ways and reasons, aside from the oil, that determines how, when and where varnish is laid down. In some engines no matter what kind of lube you run, varnish will form. Anything from poor design, parts to maintenance can come into play but almost all the time the oil takes the bad rap for it. And varnish is largely not a problem unless it builds up in places where it effects a tight clearance like on a valve stem/seat or seal where it can prevent the seal from being lubricated. Obviously using a lube that has good thermally stability at high temps can help mitigate the problem but a lube can't compensate for a design problem. For example an engine that sees high valve/valve stem temps. There's a SAE paper out there that investigates this very problem.
Yeah, I know there's no way around it in some cases. The early 2000s Camry V6 comes to mind. Didn't seem to matter what you ran in it, the head was going to sludge unless you shorten your OCI.
The main issue i have with pinning varnish on the lube is there are soooo many ways and reasons, aside from the oil, that determines how, when and where varnish is laid down. In some engines no matter what kind of lube you run, varnish will form. Anything from poor design, parts to maintenance can come into play but almost all the time the oil takes the bad rap for it. And varnish is largely not a problem unless it builds up in places where it effects a tight clearance like on a valve stem/seat or seal where it can prevent the seal from being lubricated. Obviously using a lube that has good thermally stability at high temps can help mitigate the problem but a lube can't compensate for a design problem. For example an engine that sees high valve/valve stem temps. There's a SAE paper out there that investigates this very problem.
Yeah, I know there's no way around it in some cases. The early 2000s Camry V6 comes to mind. Didn't seem to matter what you ran in it, the head was going to sludge unless you shorten your OCI.
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The longer I read BITOG and the more UOAs I see the more I'm convinced you could use any quality oil in any viscosity for any normal application (possibly excluding track cars or extreme towing, etc) because it just doesn't matter. Honestly, when is the last time you saw any data to suggest oil brand, certs or even viscosity was the cause of any adverse outcome for an engine?
I'm not sure I'd agree on the viscosity part, at least if you live anywhere that has weather, and many modern engines (such as the one in my Mazda) had their entire pumping systems designed for light oil, so too heavy could cause problems.
But for brand? Yeah. It's not a big deal. If it meets the appropriate spec, it's fine. If it wasn't, it wouldn't meet the spec. The issuers of said specs take them seriously and wont just hand them out to anything.
The longer I read BITOG and the more UOAs I see the more I'm convinced you could use any quality oil in any viscosity for any normal application (possibly excluding track cars or extreme towing, etc) because it just doesn't matter. Honestly, when is the last time you saw any data to suggest oil brand, certs or even viscosity was the cause of any adverse outcome for an engine?
I'm not sure I'd agree on the viscosity part, at least if you live anywhere that has weather, and many modern engines (such as the one in my Mazda) had their entire pumping systems designed for light oil, so too heavy could cause problems.
But for brand? Yeah. It's not a big deal. If it meets the appropriate spec, it's fine. If it wasn't, it wouldn't meet the spec. The issuers of said specs take them seriously and wont just hand them out to anything.
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
*I'm going to say that lower tier synthetics (i.e. ST , QSUD , Magnatec , Havoline , Mobil Super , etc.) are as "economy" as I will go on engine oils for vehicles in my signature ... Even my Honda lawn mower gets M1 10W30 . * Why use conventional (and the inherent varnish most give - unless for a true beater vehicle) when synthetic D1 / Gen 2 oils can be had cost effectively and the higher tier synthetic D1 / Gen 2 oils can be had on sale , price roll back , or with rebates ?
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
I pay close attention to results posted in this forum, especially when someone is kind enough to post pictures of what their 150,000 mile engine looks like under the valve covers. The trend I've noticed is that the engines fed conventional oil for their entire lives very often have a golden-brown hue to the internals, which is varnish. Conversely, the guys who proudly display their engine internals that have lived their lives on "synthetics" look as if they were just manufactured yesterday, with no hint of gold or brown.
A lot of guys on this board pay no mind to varnish, and perhaps they're correct in their thinking that it does no harm. But not all of us are comfortable with it. I don't want it all over the valve lifters, or inside the cam phasers or anywhere near the timing chain & related components. And I really don't want coking inside my turbocharger.
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
*I'm going to say that lower tier synthetics (i.e. ST , QSUD , Magnatec , Havoline , Mobil Super , etc.) are as "economy" as I will go on engine oils for vehicles in my signature ... Even my Honda lawn mower gets M1 10W30 . * Why use conventional (and the inherent varnish most give - unless for a true beater vehicle) when synthetic D1 / Gen 2 oils can be had cost effectively and the higher tier synthetic D1 / Gen 2 oils can be had on sale , price roll back , or with rebates ?
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
..
So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
None of this is my thoughts on outcome, just on the facts as to what is recommended by the actual manufacturer of the engine. I trust them more.
You say you follow these posts but its hardly scientific looking at photos of engines from people on BITOG and what oils they run.
This isnt even a remotely scientific, comparing different engines with different oils with different drivers in different climates.
I do agree as far as ones thoughts on "adverse outcomes" I think the OP is talking about wear and engine life.
Using the API oil of any brand recommenced by the manufacture will give him the engine life.
No one can say the people with super clean engines will last longer then those that are not or visa-versa.
My post is only about, using the API oil of any brand will most likely mean to the OP the lubricated parts of the engine will last longer then the non lubricated engine components or the vehicle itself.
BTW, I have no problem with those who choose to use expensive oil, not at all, I do have a problem with the so called factual "science" that never seems to be given to be by the makers of the expensive oil. Real SAE test results from EVERY catagory.
Broad, sweeping statements never pass without argument on this board. One person's "adverse outcome" is another person's "meh, who cares?".
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So no, not every 'quality' oil is equal, depending on your own idea of "adverse outcome" or acceptability. I see no reason to use and oil that will likely turn my engine internals gold, when there are oils available that won't.
None of this is my thoughts on outcome, just on the facts as to what is recommended by the actual manufacturer of the engine. I trust them more.
You say you follow these posts but its hardly scientific looking at photos of engines from people on BITOG and what oils they run.
This isnt even a remotely scientific, comparing different engines with different oils with different drivers in different climates.
I do agree as far as ones thoughts on "adverse outcomes" I think the OP is talking about wear and engine life.
Using the API oil of any brand recommenced by the manufacture will give him the engine life.
No one can say the people with super clean engines will last longer then those that are not or visa-versa.
My post is only about, using the API oil of any brand will most likely mean to the OP the lubricated parts of the engine will last longer then the non lubricated engine components or the vehicle itself.
BTW, I have no problem with those who choose to use expensive oil, not at all, I do have a problem with the so called factual "science" that never seems to be given to be by the makers of the expensive oil. Real SAE test results from EVERY catagory.
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