Just used 2.5 year old brake fluid. Works great!
- Thread starter wowthisexists
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FWIW, I bought one of those electronic LED pens to check my brake fluid. I tested both my cars that supposedly would be due for fluid changes, one 5 years and one 10 years (at least). Both tested green... Hmm. Maybe I got a dud. So I tested its accuracy by putting 1 tablespoon of fresh DOT 3 brake fluid (which tested green) and 3 drops of water in a pill bottle and shook it up. Those proportions should be ~1.3% water content. The 30K is pretty ridiculous, considering they even describe the system as "sealed" in their FSM. But do or do not, IDGAF. Wait... I think my Yoda is cross-linked on my Dua Lipa...
Originally Posted by wowthisexists
I used up the rest of my May 2017 brake fluid.
2.5 years old. Car stops better than ever!
The 1 bottle did 3 different cars in 3 different years!
Don't believe the fake news hype of OCD suckers throwing out perfectly good fluid just because it's 2 days old.
Cars drive around with literally 20 year old brake fluid and no one died with no brakes.
No, many have died due to brake failure with old brake fluid as the cause. You have NO support for the opposite assertion.
But being a cheap Scot - Pol mutt, If I use two oz of brake hydraulic fluid, I'm capping the bottle tight and it goes back on the shelf. For next time. I might write a "opened on" date and not use if its over 5 years old. Def not use if over ten years old.
Not much if any moisture to absorb in a closed container - compared to the installed systems on the car.
Now your fluid near the calipers and at the reservoir absorbs lots of moisture, and if you ever pulled apart calipers - which are subject to a hot water wash in the rain and salty snow wash in the Winter - you would see the rust and junk in there from moisture attacking and corroding the metal.
So flush is necessary every 2 years or so in harsh climes. Maybe in the desert you can go 5 years
I used up the rest of my May 2017 brake fluid.
2.5 years old. Car stops better than ever!
The 1 bottle did 3 different cars in 3 different years!
Don't believe the fake news hype of OCD suckers throwing out perfectly good fluid just because it's 2 days old.
Cars drive around with literally 20 year old brake fluid and no one died with no brakes.
No, many have died due to brake failure with old brake fluid as the cause. You have NO support for the opposite assertion.
But being a cheap Scot - Pol mutt, If I use two oz of brake hydraulic fluid, I'm capping the bottle tight and it goes back on the shelf. For next time. I might write a "opened on" date and not use if its over 5 years old. Def not use if over ten years old.
Not much if any moisture to absorb in a closed container - compared to the installed systems on the car.
Now your fluid near the calipers and at the reservoir absorbs lots of moisture, and if you ever pulled apart calipers - which are subject to a hot water wash in the rain and salty snow wash in the Winter - you would see the rust and junk in there from moisture attacking and corroding the metal.
So flush is necessary every 2 years or so in harsh climes. Maybe in the desert you can go 5 years
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by wowthisexists
I used up the rest of my May 2017 brake fluid. 2.5 years old. Car stops better than ever!
Why? What is it in 2.5 year old brake fluid that suddenly makes the car stop better than ever? Was it low on fluid?
I too question this. Does the newer fluid have better compressibility properties? I think not. There was probably some air expelled during the procedure.
Changing the fluid doesn't make a car immediately stop better. It just helps prevent internal corrosion, removes wear particles and copper contamination, and prevents boil in extreme conditions.
Originally Posted by wowthisexists
I used up the rest of my May 2017 brake fluid. 2.5 years old. Car stops better than ever!
Why? What is it in 2.5 year old brake fluid that suddenly makes the car stop better than ever? Was it low on fluid?
I too question this. Does the newer fluid have better compressibility properties? I think not. There was probably some air expelled during the procedure.
Changing the fluid doesn't make a car immediately stop better. It just helps prevent internal corrosion, removes wear particles and copper contamination, and prevents boil in extreme conditions.
Originally Posted by gregk24
I have never performed a brake flush myself, but I do use the turkey baster method and use new fluid every time. Not worth using possibly contaminated fluid when new fluid is so inexpensive. Just my opinion.
Brake fluid doesn't circulate.
I have never performed a brake flush myself, but I do use the turkey baster method and use new fluid every time. Not worth using possibly contaminated fluid when new fluid is so inexpensive. Just my opinion.
Brake fluid doesn't circulate.
1) Great thread and Happy New Year to all
2) I have "always thought" the accumulated moisture in brake fluid was inevitable.
3) I've also "always thought" a can of brake fluid with the top screwed down tightly was OK to use.
4) That, in time, said moisture could or would corrode or rust brake system parts.
5) As a subsequence that corrosion would blacken the fluid.
6) And damage to "delicate" ABS parts was also a risk with bad fluid--though nobody has ever posted a picture of rusted up ABS hardware.
I'm glad to hear that the average system isn't as fragile as I had been led to believe.
7) My service recommendations call for 2 year brake fluid changes (pretty sure). I also have come to believe lubing pins etc. might be more necessary more often.
8) Dave9 can use my toothbrush anytime. I love the way he writes.
2) I have "always thought" the accumulated moisture in brake fluid was inevitable.
3) I've also "always thought" a can of brake fluid with the top screwed down tightly was OK to use.
4) That, in time, said moisture could or would corrode or rust brake system parts.
5) As a subsequence that corrosion would blacken the fluid.
6) And damage to "delicate" ABS parts was also a risk with bad fluid--though nobody has ever posted a picture of rusted up ABS hardware.
I'm glad to hear that the average system isn't as fragile as I had been led to believe.
7) My service recommendations call for 2 year brake fluid changes (pretty sure). I also have come to believe lubing pins etc. might be more necessary more often.
8) Dave9 can use my toothbrush anytime. I love the way he writes.
There is a red herring in the brake fluid myths. A small % of water in brake lines does not cause internal rust by itself except in very small amounts from oxygen dissolved in it. Water is a catalyst, while an additional source of oxygen is required for rust. "Most" modern brake systems are sealed, do not draw in outside air, not even to displace the fluid in the reservoir which instead uses a diaphragm that displaces the volume of fluid as it drops, and seals the air away on the other side in the reservoir that is drawn in so there isn't a vacuum.
If your diaphragm leaks, or you're obsessively taking the cap off to check fluid level, then you're letting oxygen in. If not, water alone is not going to cause rust beyond that trace amount of dissolved oxygen reacting away, which it did fairly quickly, not taking years. That tiny bit of dissolved oxygen is consumed in what little rust reaction there was, and is no longer available, does not cause further rust. It is a trivial amount.
Modern (for last few decades at least) brake hoses don't let air in to any significant extent. It is the breakdown of the additive package in brake fluid, and dissolved copper (from the brake lines' construction) in the fluid that is the source of most brake system wear from old fluid. If you do not have a severe use scenario that overheats the fluid, this usually takes several years, but if you're really anxious about it then check for copper to determine end of fluid life. A typical make/break threshold is 200ppm copper and there are test strips that indicate it.
This does not mean you should not change the fluid if you have an old, non-sealing or now considered defective brake design that is letting air (water vapor) in and through heating you get spongy brakes. Otherwise, changing fluid based on paranoia that it might happen some day is treating a problem you do not have. It is fair to do that, but not truly needed. It would be a bit like changing your serpentine belt every year with the hope that will keep it from ever failing. In some situations that might be really important but for most it is excessive, and yet, eventually you will need a new belt. Nothing lasts forever.
If your diaphragm leaks, or you're obsessively taking the cap off to check fluid level, then you're letting oxygen in. If not, water alone is not going to cause rust beyond that trace amount of dissolved oxygen reacting away, which it did fairly quickly, not taking years. That tiny bit of dissolved oxygen is consumed in what little rust reaction there was, and is no longer available, does not cause further rust. It is a trivial amount.
Modern (for last few decades at least) brake hoses don't let air in to any significant extent. It is the breakdown of the additive package in brake fluid, and dissolved copper (from the brake lines' construction) in the fluid that is the source of most brake system wear from old fluid. If you do not have a severe use scenario that overheats the fluid, this usually takes several years, but if you're really anxious about it then check for copper to determine end of fluid life. A typical make/break threshold is 200ppm copper and there are test strips that indicate it.
This does not mean you should not change the fluid if you have an old, non-sealing or now considered defective brake design that is letting air (water vapor) in and through heating you get spongy brakes. Otherwise, changing fluid based on paranoia that it might happen some day is treating a problem you do not have. It is fair to do that, but not truly needed. It would be a bit like changing your serpentine belt every year with the hope that will keep it from ever failing. In some situations that might be really important but for most it is excessive, and yet, eventually you will need a new belt. Nothing lasts forever.
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Originally Posted by Lapham3
Does brake fluid in the often opened container get 'cloudy', or some other identifiable way after a certain level of water is absorbed?
Some time ago a member posted using a brake fluid tester pen like the one linked. No personal experience, so don't know if they are reliable.
https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Moisture-Analyzer-Indicators-Diagnostic/dp/B07W9JKC49
Does brake fluid in the often opened container get 'cloudy', or some other identifiable way after a certain level of water is absorbed?
Some time ago a member posted using a brake fluid tester pen like the one linked. No personal experience, so don't know if they are reliable.
https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Moisture-Analyzer-Indicators-Diagnostic/dp/B07W9JKC49
Originally Posted by wowthisexists
No, that's just what you've been told.
The fluid works perfectly fine, and the cars stops better than ever.
Hygroscopic is a bunch of BS best left for science nerds in labs.
NOT THE REAL WORLD. Can sat in my garage for almost 3 years.
Good as new.
People like you on the road is what worries me!
No, that's just what you've been told.
The fluid works perfectly fine, and the cars stops better than ever.
Hygroscopic is a bunch of BS best left for science nerds in labs.
NOT THE REAL WORLD. Can sat in my garage for almost 3 years.
Good as new.
People like you on the road is what worries me!
Originally Posted by eyeofthetiger
Somewhere between OCD, and letting your brake system rot from the inside out, there is an actual correct way to maintain a hydraulic brake system.
Yes, for me that solution is using brand new 2 year old brake fluid.
Somewhere between OCD, and letting your brake system rot from the inside out, there is an actual correct way to maintain a hydraulic brake system.
Yes, for me that solution is using brand new 2 year old brake fluid.
Originally Posted by Lapham3
Does brake fluid in the often opened container get 'cloudy', or some other identifiable way after a certain level of water is absorbed?
No, it was clear and new looking. Water is clear. So, maybe you just never know.
Gotta live on the edge !!
Does brake fluid in the often opened container get 'cloudy', or some other identifiable way after a certain level of water is absorbed?
No, it was clear and new looking. Water is clear. So, maybe you just never know.
Gotta live on the edge !!
Originally Posted by Dave9
"Most" modern brake systems are sealed, do not draw in outside air, not even to displace the fluid in the reservoir which instead uses a diaphragm that displaces the volume of fluid as it drops, and seals the air away on the other side in the reservoir that is drawn in so there isn't a vacuum.
If brakes are sealed, how does air get into the system in the first place?
Maybe that is also just a myth, and brake fluid truly is 30 years lifetime fluid.
If air gets IN, then that is exactly where FLUID would get out (leak), when there is pedal pressure.
"Most" modern brake systems are sealed, do not draw in outside air, not even to displace the fluid in the reservoir which instead uses a diaphragm that displaces the volume of fluid as it drops, and seals the air away on the other side in the reservoir that is drawn in so there isn't a vacuum.
If brakes are sealed, how does air get into the system in the first place?
Maybe that is also just a myth, and brake fluid truly is 30 years lifetime fluid.
If air gets IN, then that is exactly where FLUID would get out (leak), when there is pedal pressure.
Personal observation in the last 30 Years: Two times brake padal goes to the floor while hard braking, years old, never flushed brake fluid boiled.
One car ended in the meadow beside the street, the other rear-ended annother car in the City.
Both times pure luck, only the cars where damaged.
Drive a little bit harder and faster with some very old breakfluid and see what happens...Report back. If you still can.
@ Sayjac: These testers are O.K. In Austria the brake fluid gets tested with these testers at every bi-yearly mandatory safety insepction of the car. Old brake fluid is considerd a serius safety flaw in this country, surprisingly not here in germany.
One car ended in the meadow beside the street, the other rear-ended annother car in the City.
Both times pure luck, only the cars where damaged.
Drive a little bit harder and faster with some very old breakfluid and see what happens...Report back. If you still can.
@ Sayjac: These testers are O.K. In Austria the brake fluid gets tested with these testers at every bi-yearly mandatory safety insepction of the car. Old brake fluid is considerd a serius safety flaw in this country, surprisingly not here in germany.
Originally Posted by wowthisexists
Originally Posted by Dave9
"Most" modern brake systems are sealed, do not draw in outside air, not even to displace the fluid in the reservoir which instead uses a diaphragm that displaces the volume of fluid as it drops, and seals the air away on the other side in the reservoir that is drawn in so there isn't a vacuum.
If brakes are sealed, how does air get into the system in the first place?
Maybe that is also just a myth, and brake fluid truly is 30 years lifetime fluid.
If air gets IN, then that is exactly where FLUID would get out (leak), when there is pedal pressure.
It usually doesn't, but nothing is perfect. Many years ago it was that the molecule size of brake fluid is larger than air, but modern hose construction more effectively seals against air too, but hoses (or anything) eventually wear. The more common way air gets in is that it was there between the fluid and diaphragm all along. If there is a leak to the point where loss of fluid causes the master cylinder to empty, then there's only air left to push through the system.
Whether it is lifetime depends on how you define lifetime. A vehicle manufacturer considers lifetime far less than 30 years, but you can consider many components on a vehicle to potentially have a shorter lifetime than the entire vehicle. You will eventually need new fluid once the additive package is ineffective at mitigating copper loss from the lines, but you may have a different fault before then that requires component replacement and bleeding anyway. Something's going to fail eventually, but OEMs just aren't seeing a rash of brake failures due to (the average owner) not changing fluid every couple years. Clearly people frequenting BITOG aren't average vehicle owners, but their driving still could be.
Originally Posted by Dave9
"Most" modern brake systems are sealed, do not draw in outside air, not even to displace the fluid in the reservoir which instead uses a diaphragm that displaces the volume of fluid as it drops, and seals the air away on the other side in the reservoir that is drawn in so there isn't a vacuum.
If brakes are sealed, how does air get into the system in the first place?
Maybe that is also just a myth, and brake fluid truly is 30 years lifetime fluid.
If air gets IN, then that is exactly where FLUID would get out (leak), when there is pedal pressure.
It usually doesn't, but nothing is perfect. Many years ago it was that the molecule size of brake fluid is larger than air, but modern hose construction more effectively seals against air too, but hoses (or anything) eventually wear. The more common way air gets in is that it was there between the fluid and diaphragm all along. If there is a leak to the point where loss of fluid causes the master cylinder to empty, then there's only air left to push through the system.
Whether it is lifetime depends on how you define lifetime. A vehicle manufacturer considers lifetime far less than 30 years, but you can consider many components on a vehicle to potentially have a shorter lifetime than the entire vehicle. You will eventually need new fluid once the additive package is ineffective at mitigating copper loss from the lines, but you may have a different fault before then that requires component replacement and bleeding anyway. Something's going to fail eventually, but OEMs just aren't seeing a rash of brake failures due to (the average owner) not changing fluid every couple years. Clearly people frequenting BITOG aren't average vehicle owners, but their driving still could be.
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Originally Posted by dave1251
The majority of brake systems receive no fluid replacement until parts start to wear and lose fluids.
I for one would not use German engineering for a maintenance guidance.
Even some of our OCD members agree some of the maintenance recommendations are overkill.
Can't be certain if 'overkill' is the most appropriate description in a so-called brake maintenance thread.
Some of us are OCD about it on occasion.
The majority of brake systems receive no fluid replacement until parts start to wear and lose fluids.
I for one would not use German engineering for a maintenance guidance.
Even some of our OCD members agree some of the maintenance recommendations are overkill.
Can't be certain if 'overkill' is the most appropriate description in a so-called brake maintenance thread.
Some of us are OCD about it on occasion.
You guys could save a lot on your water bill if you drink your used brake fluid. Ever since I started drinking my used brake fluid, I've cut my water bill in half and I've won so many internet arguments. The health benefits are amazing!
I've also been collecting urine from all of the neighborhood stray cats and I'm going to use that as brake fluid next. Its going to give my car cat like reflexes, the stopping distance will be cut in half!
I've also been collecting urine from all of the neighborhood stray cats and I'm going to use that as brake fluid next. Its going to give my car cat like reflexes, the stopping distance will be cut in half!
Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by eyeofthetiger
That is quite the rambling piece of fiction.
Somewhere between OCD, and letting your brake system rot from the inside out, there is an actual correct way to maintain a hydraulic brake system.
So you are either too lazy to refute, or have no way of doing so. Sorry but that doesn't cut it.
There is no evidence to support your vague assertion of "rot from the inside out". In fact, normally brake lines rot from the outside in. It is rare to have a brake line failure where the outside was not crusty chunks falling off.
Please pretend that you have more data and experience than the OEM does, enough that they would risk brake system lawsuits by not shifting the burden of brake fluid changes onto the consumer. That makes no sense whatsoever, but I would enjoy reading that nonsense.
Further it is weasel words to vaguely imply there is a "correct way" when you can't substantiate that. The correct way is that proven by science, by decades of testing by OEMs. Again, do follow the OEM prescribed service intervals.
Your attempt at trolling (once you stated "rambling ... fiction") pretty much backfired. You cannot substantiate your vague delusion for a majority of drivers, and I did mention exceptions.
The truth is that normally brake fluid lasts the life of the brake components, and ironically (not so much), that is what most OEMs prescribe.
I want to hear of your specific use scenario where this didn't work for you. Then I won't buy that vehicle without upgrading their defective brakes.
I only give free advice to nice people. I already don't like you, so if you want more advice, you will have to pay me the full labor rate of $120/hour. In the mean time, try not to kill anyone with your ignorance.
Originally Posted by eyeofthetiger
That is quite the rambling piece of fiction.
Somewhere between OCD, and letting your brake system rot from the inside out, there is an actual correct way to maintain a hydraulic brake system.
So you are either too lazy to refute, or have no way of doing so. Sorry but that doesn't cut it.
There is no evidence to support your vague assertion of "rot from the inside out". In fact, normally brake lines rot from the outside in. It is rare to have a brake line failure where the outside was not crusty chunks falling off.
Please pretend that you have more data and experience than the OEM does, enough that they would risk brake system lawsuits by not shifting the burden of brake fluid changes onto the consumer. That makes no sense whatsoever, but I would enjoy reading that nonsense.
Further it is weasel words to vaguely imply there is a "correct way" when you can't substantiate that. The correct way is that proven by science, by decades of testing by OEMs. Again, do follow the OEM prescribed service intervals.
Your attempt at trolling (once you stated "rambling ... fiction") pretty much backfired. You cannot substantiate your vague delusion for a majority of drivers, and I did mention exceptions.
The truth is that normally brake fluid lasts the life of the brake components, and ironically (not so much), that is what most OEMs prescribe.
I want to hear of your specific use scenario where this didn't work for you. Then I won't buy that vehicle without upgrading their defective brakes.
I only give free advice to nice people. I already don't like you, so if you want more advice, you will have to pay me the full labor rate of $120/hour. In the mean time, try not to kill anyone with your ignorance.
Originally Posted by eyeofthetiger
Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by eyeofthetiger
That is quite the rambling piece of fiction.
Somewhere between OCD, and letting your brake system rot from the inside out, there is an actual correct way to maintain a hydraulic brake system.
So you are either too lazy to refute, or have no way of doing so. Sorry but that doesn't cut it.
There is no evidence to support your vague assertion of "rot from the inside out". In fact, normally brake lines rot from the outside in. It is rare to have a brake line failure where the outside was not crusty chunks falling off.
Please pretend that you have more data and experience than the OEM does, enough that they would risk brake system lawsuits by not shifting the burden of brake fluid changes onto the consumer. That makes no sense whatsoever, but I would enjoy reading that nonsense.
Further it is weasel words to vaguely imply there is a "correct way" when you can't substantiate that. The correct way is that proven by science, by decades of testing by OEMs. Again, do follow the OEM prescribed service intervals.
Your attempt at trolling (once you stated "rambling ... fiction") pretty much backfired. You cannot substantiate your vague delusion for a majority of drivers, and I did mention exceptions.
The truth is that normally brake fluid lasts the life of the brake components, and ironically (not so much), that is what most OEMs prescribe.
I want to hear of your specific use scenario where this didn't work for you. Then I won't buy that vehicle without upgrading their defective brakes.
I only give free advice to nice people. I already don't like you, so if you want more advice, you will have to pay me the full labor rate of $120/hour. In the mean time, try not to kill anyone with your ignorance.
Instead of attacking him, why don't you present some real information to refute his informed, well written argument?
You have offered nothing.
Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by eyeofthetiger
That is quite the rambling piece of fiction.
Somewhere between OCD, and letting your brake system rot from the inside out, there is an actual correct way to maintain a hydraulic brake system.
So you are either too lazy to refute, or have no way of doing so. Sorry but that doesn't cut it.
There is no evidence to support your vague assertion of "rot from the inside out". In fact, normally brake lines rot from the outside in. It is rare to have a brake line failure where the outside was not crusty chunks falling off.
Please pretend that you have more data and experience than the OEM does, enough that they would risk brake system lawsuits by not shifting the burden of brake fluid changes onto the consumer. That makes no sense whatsoever, but I would enjoy reading that nonsense.
Further it is weasel words to vaguely imply there is a "correct way" when you can't substantiate that. The correct way is that proven by science, by decades of testing by OEMs. Again, do follow the OEM prescribed service intervals.
Your attempt at trolling (once you stated "rambling ... fiction") pretty much backfired. You cannot substantiate your vague delusion for a majority of drivers, and I did mention exceptions.
The truth is that normally brake fluid lasts the life of the brake components, and ironically (not so much), that is what most OEMs prescribe.
I want to hear of your specific use scenario where this didn't work for you. Then I won't buy that vehicle without upgrading their defective brakes.
I only give free advice to nice people. I already don't like you, so if you want more advice, you will have to pay me the full labor rate of $120/hour. In the mean time, try not to kill anyone with your ignorance.
Instead of attacking him, why don't you present some real information to refute his informed, well written argument?
You have offered nothing.
It's quite simple. Seal the bottle and don't let air in.
When I finish with a partial bottle of fluid, I put some saran wrap over the opening and tighten the lid back on. It is sealed and stays good for years.
If you leave the bottle sitting around with the top off, yes, it's going to absorb moisture. So don't do that. But throwing out a pint of fluid because you are scared is silly.
When I finish with a partial bottle of fluid, I put some saran wrap over the opening and tighten the lid back on. It is sealed and stays good for years.
If you leave the bottle sitting around with the top off, yes, it's going to absorb moisture. So don't do that. But throwing out a pint of fluid because you are scared is silly.
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