Recent Topics
storm door installation question
by FirstNissan - 02/22/20 12:13 AM
Kirkland VS M1
by A_Spruce - 02/21/20 11:24 PM
Ryan Newman bar
by P10crew - 02/21/20 10:16 PM
Good aftermarket shocks and struts?
by Micahmcmeen - 02/21/20 09:49 PM
Oil Marketing
by Mathew_Boss - 02/21/20 09:45 PM
run to your walmart NOW!
by willow - 02/21/20 09:39 PM
When redundancy goes out the window
by Exhaustgases - 02/21/20 08:34 PM
Please help me decide....
by ecureed - 02/21/20 08:03 PM
Flywheel pic
by Chris142 - 02/21/20 07:49 PM
Rislone Hyper Fuel
by rrretiree7 - 02/21/20 07:40 PM
Bosch Brakes
by ChiTDI - 02/21/20 07:16 PM
Which 15W40 for an Onan generator?
by atikovi - 02/21/20 06:39 PM
Valvoline Advanced 5W40 MST
by BurntMusic - 02/21/20 06:04 PM
2014 F250, 6.7L 13,000 OCI Amsoil AME 15w40
by claluja - 02/21/20 05:43 PM
What Are These On My Caliper Pistons?
by Fitz98 - 02/21/20 05:37 PM
Gun carry insurance
by Colt - 02/21/20 05:25 PM
drywall crack. how do i fix it?
by WhyMe - 02/21/20 02:55 PM
Yokohama AVID Ascend GT
by Bottom_Feeder - 02/21/20 02:53 PM
Getting my Chevy 4.3 to 300k
by CharlotteB - 02/21/20 02:16 PM
Newest Members
Hubbs1982, AW4BYT, YOUSSEF, b3e3, Bogdon
70775 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
34 registered members (Cdn17Sport6MT, carlprop, cb4017, Blkstanger, c502cid, blufeb95, 2 invisible), 1,358 guests, and 18 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics301,768
Posts5,202,390
Members70,775
Most Online4,538
Jan 20th, 2020
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: Danno] #5297931 12/18/19 11:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,605
M
maxdustington Offline
Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,605
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
My Dad had a couple propane cube vans in the 80s and told me the same thing, that they (at that time) could not handle the heat. I think the valve seats went in one of the vans he had. I've seen people mention engines built to "propane specs" so I though those days were over.


99 Toyota Tercel CE 5EFE/C151
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5297943 12/18/19 11:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,681
U
UncleDave Offline
Offline
U
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,681
Dont see it happening -

If you've ever lived with an electric and started every day with a " full tank" its really hard for anything to match that.

UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5298006 12/18/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 960
P
Pelican Offline
Offline
P
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 960
I think that electric cars are the future, but not the plug-ins.
The fuel cell, whatever the main matter is, is the answer.

Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: Rmay635703] #5298012 12/18/19 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,494
N
nthach Offline
Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,494
Hydrogen will never leave the domain of transit buses or big rigs IMO. BEVs are where it's at for non-ICE passenger cars, FCHVs I think can be more viable for OTR trucks and buses but unlike Toyota/Honda/Daimler making their own fuel cell stacks, Ballard out of Vancouver BC is the predominant COTS supplier of them.

Originally Posted by Rmay635703


Further
1. Hydrogen uses more exotic metals than a lithium battery. (People mention lithium salts being hazardous waste then forget what makes hydrogen tick)


5. Hydrogen fueling stations are extremely expensive to operate while being extremely unreliable, people commonly get the fuel handle frozen solid in their car in sunny California.



Yep - the proton exchange membrane in a fuel cell is what makes the thing tick. It needs platinum and most of the world's reserves of Pt(and other platinum-group precious metals) are in Russia, Canada and South Africa. You need a good quantity of Pt for the membrane.

H2 fueling is slow, I saw a Mirai fuel up the other day ago while I was getting propane and it took it about 10 minutes to fill up. New Flyer who already has a few FCHV buses on the road claims 6-20 minute fueling times depending on bus length. The infrastructure to fuel a gaseous bus/truck is far more advanced than what's available for retail fueling of passenger cars. Hydrogen fueling is quite similar to xNG - but the systems used to fuel a xNG truck or bus can deliver at higher pressures and lower temps.

Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5298031 12/18/19 01:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,493
J
jeepman3071 Offline
Offline
J
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,493
I think the best scenario is a natural gas/battery hybrid. NG can charge the battery when it's low, then the car can run like a Prius for the remainder of it's battery life with even less emissions than a gasoline hybrid.

All electric cars have some great qualities, but charging is a huge obstacle. The infrastructure is not there to make it as convenient as gasoline, and most people who drive cars are not able to charge electrics overnight where they live. People with street parking in cities, college campuses, those who live in apartments, and other scenarios where they are unable to charge overnight or charge quickly it simply won't work for them. Not to mention those living in rural areas who can barely make it to a gas station without carrying extra fuel. Turn on the heater in an electric car or climb some mountains and your range decreases significantly.

I know a few Tesla owners who love them, but 2 of them have the option to charge both at home and at work, and the other can charge all day at work. Not everyone has that option, and considering how many brown outs California has when people use air conditioners it might be a while before they do.


1998 Jeep Wrangler Sahara 4.0L/5MT (156k) - PHM 10w30, Wix 51085
2009 BMW 328i N51 (58k) - Liqui Moly 5w40, MANN HU816X
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: Elkins45] #5298128 12/18/19 02:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,992
D
Danno Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,992
Originally Posted by Elkins45
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.


The key for H being net energy gain is in using renewable point source power to do the splitting. Basic chemistry tells us it takes as much energy to split the H2 from the O as you get back when you burn it. Using grid power to split the water would be a net energy loss and pollution increase. The only way it makes sense is if you do the electrolysis using solar or wind. Making your own gasoline at home is extremely impractical but a one-time investment in a small individual solar or wind electrolysis plant could be a decent long-term investment for a family. Everybody could be their own H2 producer.

Renewable source power such as solar and wind is so unreliable, 100% conventional power backup is a requirement.
Renewables will not be cost viable for H production for decades, if ever.


2019 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit 5.7L Hemi
2019 RAV4 Limited Hybrid
2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5298177 12/18/19 03:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 66
B
BucDan Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 66
My bet is, Toyota already invested a lot of money into the research. Probably will lose face if they back out now.


2013 Audi S4 6MT - 45K miles
- OCI every 5K miles
- Motul X-cess 5w-40
- Mann OEM oil filter
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5298183 12/18/19 03:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,540
K
kschachn Offline
Offline
K
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,540
Thermodynamically I'm not sure how you could pick a worse feed stock for hydrogen production than water, a highly stable oxide. Reforming natural gas is a much better option but then why not just use the methane in the first place?

Neither one is ideal since the energy density is so low compared to a liquid.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: Farnsworth] #5298240 12/18/19 04:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,549
L
Lolvoguy Offline
Offline
L
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,549
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
This or that it makes no difference, just keep trying to go forward.


06 Lexus IS350- Wife
88 BMW 325is- Mistress
Say "no" to Turbo!
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5298662 12/19/19 05:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 862
R
Rmay635703 Offline
Offline
R
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 862

Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: buster] #5298810 12/19/19 08:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,709
M
MarkM66 Offline
Offline
M
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,709
They said that on "Who killed the Electric car." And that was in 2006...

Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: Elkins45] #5298815 12/19/19 08:54 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,571
O
OVERKILL Offline
Offline
O
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,571
Originally Posted by Elkins45
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.


The key for H being net energy gain is in using renewable point source power to do the splitting. Basic chemistry tells us it takes as much energy to split the H2 from the O as you get back when you burn it. Using grid power to split the water would be a net energy loss and pollution increase. The only way it makes sense is if you do the electrolysis using solar or wind. Making your own gasoline at home is extremely impractical but a one-time investment in a small individual solar or wind electrolysis plant could be a decent long-term investment for a family. Everybody could be their own H2 producer.


The scale required to do that is essentially impossible. Electrolysis is horrifically inefficient, which is why all current hydrogen production is done via gas extraction. The only viable solution that I've seen mentioned is using waste heat from UHT nukes to separate it as a byproduct, while simultaneously generating electricity.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: OVERKILL] #5298838 12/19/19 09:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 862
R
Rmay635703 Offline
Offline
R
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 862
Originally Posted by OVERKILL

The scale required to do that is essentially impossible. Electrolysis is horrifically inefficient, which is why all current hydrogen production is done via gas extraction. The only viable solution that I've seen mentioned is using waste heat from UHT nukes to separate it as a byproduct, while simultaneously generating electricity.


To put things into perspective
A car running off COMPRESSED AIR is several times more efficient than a hydrogen car and you get free air conditioning.

Yet a compressed air car is considered a joke while hydrogen (by some accounts) isn’t

Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: BucDan] #5298903 12/19/19 10:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 856
B
Bjornviken Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 856
Originally Posted by BucDan
My bet is, Toyota already invested a lot of money into the research. Probably will lose face if they back out now.


Big time they will. Toyota living in a fantasy world.

Re: Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future [Re: BucDan] #5299018 12/19/19 12:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,494
N
nthach Offline
Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,494
Originally Posted by BucDan
My bet is, Toyota already invested a lot of money into the research. Probably will lose face if they back out now.

Toyota should commercially market their fuel cells to the heavy-duty market IMO.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™