Toyota really believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future
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Meh. Wishful thinking. As I understand it hydrogen tanks must continually vent to the atmosphere as it transitions from a liquid to a gas. For example BMW tried this decades ago with a 7-series and if the vehicle sat for more than a couple of days you'd have no hydrogen left to burn.
High pressure small molecule so can leak really really easy. You can have a home fueling station. Solar and or windmills to make electricity. He cost to compress after splitting water is kind of high, compressor is expensive. Storage tank is thick steel, or carbon fiber composite. Hose has to be connected and left connected for a while (minutes not hours) for the hydrogen to absorbed completely into the metal matrix storage. High octane rating, great cold start ability, sadly horrible emissions make fuel cell a requirement. Expensive fuel cell.
Mirai has been out 3 years now, not something brand new. My CNG car is a much better option. Infrastructure already in place, refueling at home option, 500+ years of supply here in the USA, nearly no emissions, high octane, etc.
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Originally Posted by atikovi
Mirai has been out 3 years now, not something brand new. My CNG car is a much better option. Infrastructure already in place, refueling at home option, 500+ years of supply here in the USA, nearly no emissions, high octane, etc.
Is that a conversion or stock? Aslo, years ago I read that the OCI on CNG engines is significantly longer compared to gas/diesel due to the lack of combustion by-products. Have you found that to be true?
Mirai has been out 3 years now, not something brand new. My CNG car is a much better option. Infrastructure already in place, refueling at home option, 500+ years of supply here in the USA, nearly no emissions, high octane, etc.
Is that a conversion or stock? Aslo, years ago I read that the OCI on CNG engines is significantly longer compared to gas/diesel due to the lack of combustion by-products. Have you found that to be true?
It was converted after it was built but still while new. Oil looks as clean at 2000 or 3000 miles as when just changed. Looking in the oil fill hole of this 125,000 mile engine, internals look as clean as a 10,000 mile engine.
Originally Posted by atikovi
Mirai has been out 3 years now, not something brand new. My CNG car is a much better option. Infrastructure already in place, refueling at home option, 500+ years of supply here in the USA, nearly no emissions, high octane, etc.
Toyota is also heavily involved in CNG fuel cell technology development. This is ultimately the the route that they want to take and hydrogen fuel cell EVs are a stepping stone to accomplishing this goal. Toyota knows that widespread adoption of hydrogen to power vehicles is not going to happen due to the lack of infrastructure and the high cost of hydrogen production (among other things).
Mirai has been out 3 years now, not something brand new. My CNG car is a much better option. Infrastructure already in place, refueling at home option, 500+ years of supply here in the USA, nearly no emissions, high octane, etc.
Toyota is also heavily involved in CNG fuel cell technology development. This is ultimately the the route that they want to take and hydrogen fuel cell EVs are a stepping stone to accomplishing this goal. Toyota knows that widespread adoption of hydrogen to power vehicles is not going to happen due to the lack of infrastructure and the high cost of hydrogen production (among other things).
Sad that the established OEM's (MB, Audi, Jaguar) are having such poor sales of their new electric cars & CUV's. Tesla has the market just because.
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
The key for H being net energy gain is in using renewable point source power to do the splitting. Basic chemistry tells us it takes as much energy to split the H2 from the O as you get back when you burn it. Using grid power to split the water would be a net energy loss and pollution increase. The only way it makes sense is if you do the electrolysis using solar or wind. Making your own gasoline at home is extremely impractical but a one-time investment in a small individual solar or wind electrolysis plant could be a decent long-term investment for a family. Everybody could be their own H2 producer.
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
The key for H being net energy gain is in using renewable point source power to do the splitting. Basic chemistry tells us it takes as much energy to split the H2 from the O as you get back when you burn it. Using grid power to split the water would be a net energy loss and pollution increase. The only way it makes sense is if you do the electrolysis using solar or wind. Making your own gasoline at home is extremely impractical but a one-time investment in a small individual solar or wind electrolysis plant could be a decent long-term investment for a family. Everybody could be their own H2 producer.
Toyota is delusional, basic thermodynamics prevent hydrogen from ever being efficient enough to be under $10 a gge.
Further
1. Hydrogen uses more exotic metals than a lithium battery. (People mention lithium salts being hazardous waste then forget what makes hydrogen tick)
2. Hydrogen is likely to be made from natural gas for the foreseeable future (2-4x more efficient than electrolyzing)
3. Hydrogen requires expensive dangerous tanks and equipment (that cannot be recertified and must be replaced after a period of time)
4. Battery powered cars can already drive just as far as hydrogen ones.
5. Hydrogen fueling stations are extremely expensive to operate while being extremely unreliable, people commonly get the fuel handle frozen solid in their car in sunny California.
6. You can't fuel at home
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sc...he-future-dr-richard-dixon-1-5014570/amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...lution-to-our-green-energy-problems/amp/
Further
1. Hydrogen uses more exotic metals than a lithium battery. (People mention lithium salts being hazardous waste then forget what makes hydrogen tick)
2. Hydrogen is likely to be made from natural gas for the foreseeable future (2-4x more efficient than electrolyzing)
3. Hydrogen requires expensive dangerous tanks and equipment (that cannot be recertified and must be replaced after a period of time)
4. Battery powered cars can already drive just as far as hydrogen ones.
5. Hydrogen fueling stations are extremely expensive to operate while being extremely unreliable, people commonly get the fuel handle frozen solid in their car in sunny California.
6. You can't fuel at home
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sc...he-future-dr-richard-dixon-1-5014570/amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...lution-to-our-green-energy-problems/amp/
Last time I looked this was a lousy idea. Unless if you could generate high pressure hydrogen without somehow using huge amounts of energy to make and/or compress, then I have no idea how this could compete. Then whatever other issues (like hydrogen embrittlement) would have to be dealt with. I thought this was a low energy density also? unless if stored at huge pressure levels?
IMO hydrogen is a battery technology, and not a very good one at that.
I realize that change is always hard, but I don't see how the physics works out here.
IMO hydrogen is a battery technology, and not a very good one at that.
I realize that change is always hard, but I don't see how the physics works out here.
Originally Posted by Danno
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
My Dad had a couple propane cube vans in the 80s and told me the same thing, that they (at that time) could not handle the heat. I think the valve seats went in one of the vans he had. I've seen people mention engines built to "propane specs" so I though those days were over.
Used to run a lot of propane conversion trucks in the 80's. Oil always looked spotless, but valves failed due to not being hardened - oops.
Went back to gasoline - too many headaches with propane. Just my experience with gaseous fuels.
As for hydrogen, if the cost to extract and support the required infrastructure is higher than the benefit, it won't survive as an option. Unless the government puts their thumb on the scale.
My Dad had a couple propane cube vans in the 80s and told me the same thing, that they (at that time) could not handle the heat. I think the valve seats went in one of the vans he had. I've seen people mention engines built to "propane specs" so I though those days were over.
I think that electric cars are the future, but not the plug-ins.
The fuel cell, whatever the main matter is, is the answer.
The fuel cell, whatever the main matter is, is the answer.
Hydrogen will never leave the domain of transit buses or big rigs IMO. BEVs are where it's at for non-ICE passenger cars, FCHVs I think can be more viable for OTR trucks and buses but unlike Toyota/Honda/Daimler making their own fuel cell stacks, Ballard out of Vancouver BC is the predominant COTS supplier of them.
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Further
1. Hydrogen uses more exotic metals than a lithium battery. (People mention lithium salts being hazardous waste then forget what makes hydrogen tick)
5. Hydrogen fueling stations are extremely expensive to operate while being extremely unreliable, people commonly get the fuel handle frozen solid in their car in sunny California.
Yep - the proton exchange membrane in a fuel cell is what makes the thing tick. It needs platinum and most of the world's reserves of Pt(and other platinum-group precious metals) are in Russia, Canada and South Africa. You need a good quantity of Pt for the membrane.
H2 fueling is slow, I saw a Mirai fuel up the other day ago while I was getting propane and it took it about 10 minutes to fill up. New Flyer who already has a few FCHV buses on the road claims 6-20 minute fueling times depending on bus length. The infrastructure to fuel a gaseous bus/truck is far more advanced than what's available for retail fueling of passenger cars. Hydrogen fueling is quite similar to xNG - but the systems used to fuel a xNG truck or bus can deliver at higher pressures and lower temps.
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Further
1. Hydrogen uses more exotic metals than a lithium battery. (People mention lithium salts being hazardous waste then forget what makes hydrogen tick)
5. Hydrogen fueling stations are extremely expensive to operate while being extremely unreliable, people commonly get the fuel handle frozen solid in their car in sunny California.
Yep - the proton exchange membrane in a fuel cell is what makes the thing tick. It needs platinum and most of the world's reserves of Pt(and other platinum-group precious metals) are in Russia, Canada and South Africa. You need a good quantity of Pt for the membrane.
H2 fueling is slow, I saw a Mirai fuel up the other day ago while I was getting propane and it took it about 10 minutes to fill up. New Flyer who already has a few FCHV buses on the road claims 6-20 minute fueling times depending on bus length. The infrastructure to fuel a gaseous bus/truck is far more advanced than what's available for retail fueling of passenger cars. Hydrogen fueling is quite similar to xNG - but the systems used to fuel a xNG truck or bus can deliver at higher pressures and lower temps.
I think the best scenario is a natural gas/battery hybrid. NG can charge the battery when it's low, then the car can run like a Prius for the remainder of it's battery life with even less emissions than a gasoline hybrid.
All electric cars have some great qualities, but charging is a huge obstacle. The infrastructure is not there to make it as convenient as gasoline, and most people who drive cars are not able to charge electrics overnight where they live. People with street parking in cities, college campuses, those who live in apartments, and other scenarios where they are unable to charge overnight or charge quickly it simply won't work for them. Not to mention those living in rural areas who can barely make it to a gas station without carrying extra fuel. Turn on the heater in an electric car or climb some mountains and your range decreases significantly.
I know a few Tesla owners who love them, but 2 of them have the option to charge both at home and at work, and the other can charge all day at work. Not everyone has that option, and considering how many brown outs California has when people use air conditioners it might be a while before they do.
All electric cars have some great qualities, but charging is a huge obstacle. The infrastructure is not there to make it as convenient as gasoline, and most people who drive cars are not able to charge electrics overnight where they live. People with street parking in cities, college campuses, those who live in apartments, and other scenarios where they are unable to charge overnight or charge quickly it simply won't work for them. Not to mention those living in rural areas who can barely make it to a gas station without carrying extra fuel. Turn on the heater in an electric car or climb some mountains and your range decreases significantly.
I know a few Tesla owners who love them, but 2 of them have the option to charge both at home and at work, and the other can charge all day at work. Not everyone has that option, and considering how many brown outs California has when people use air conditioners it might be a while before they do.
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