Penzoil Platinum 100% Synthetic ????

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by geeman789
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Don't they make it from natural, as in not synthetic, gas?

What is the feed stock for PAO production and how is it produced?
.

So PAO takes crude oil, and processes it into ethylene, then converts it into a synthetic oil product. GTL takes natural gas, converts it into liquid hydrocarbons (oil ), then processes it into a final oil product.

So, which one is truly a SYNTHETIC oil ?

That my friend is a fantastic question that deserves getting to the bottom of and i know just the people to call!

 

[PowerSurge]

Nope.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Sure, it's synthetic.
semantics are debatable forever..performance and physical properties are not. The performance and physical properties are of the highest level.
PAO manufacturingis a process, as is GTL that turns amgas stream to a liquid..The properties are not different enough to make a difference in an internal combustion engine. PAO is becoming outdated for the purpose with its cost not matching its performance for engine oil. There are other applications where it is still superior, just not this one.
I imagine as PAO units come to end of life, the Ethel year may be used as a feedstock for a different product and the production and cost of maintaining that unit be abandoned due to the economic disadvantage. That is progress.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

So here's a (honest) question for both sides: the "haters" who think Group IV/V are the only true synthetics, and the rest of us who know it makes little difference to 99% of engines on the road today:

Can you duplicate the properties of GTL identically from "real" crude? If yes, Can you do it cost effectively to match the price point of Shell's GTL oils?

IMO, if the first answer is no (I don't know because I'm not an oil chemist), then I think that solves the whole "syn/non-syn" argument bereft of any political games... because how many of our engines have ever been able to decipher politicians? Considering we have some very well versed members in UOAs who have collected and analyzed thousands of samples and cannot statistically prove any wear reduction benefit to "real" synthetics even over conventionals, please tell me what the true benefit is other than peace of mind and stroking of your own ego that you spend more on maintenance than others do?

If the second answer (price point) is no as well, who would ever pay more for plain old refined crude than GTL if performance is the same? So OP, my answer is yes, PP is synthetic.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
I recently saw posts from users that said Penzoil Platinum is a 100% synthetic oil. The implication is that it is 100% PAO or PAO/Ester blend, not a Group 3 Hydro-cracked petroleum oil.

I know there are well known 100% synthetic lubes on the market, such as Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc. Is PP a true 100% synthetic oil?



None of the above are anymore "synthetic" than PP.

 

[OilUzer]

You don't want a true %100 of anything ...
Do you want a %100?
Can you handle a %100?
You can't even wear a %100 gold.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
So here's a (honest) question for both sides: the "haters" who think Group IV/V are the only true synthetics, and the rest of us who know it makes little difference to 99% of engines on the road today:

Can you duplicate the properties of GTL identically from "real" crude? If yes, Can you do it cost effectively to match the price point of Shell's GTL oils?


The Fischer-Tropsch process can be used on basically anything that's a complex hydrocarbon, IIRC. The Germans used it to make Kerosene from coal. When used in the manner in which Shell uses it, it produces a very pure hydrocracked Group III base oil, in a narrow range of viscosities. The performance is not unlike other group III+ base oils like VISOM, Yubase, or Petro-Canada's PURITY.

Shell invested an absolutely obscene amount of money in Pearl and it produces a lot of product. So for them, using that product broadly in their product portfolio as well as selling it to other companies like XOM is the most cost-effective solution.

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
IMO, if the first answer is no (I don't know because I'm not an oil chemist), then I think that solves the whole "syn/non-syn" argument bereft of any political games... because how many of our engines have ever been able to decipher politicians? Considering we have some very well versed members in UOAs who have collected and analyzed thousands of samples and cannot statistically prove any wear reduction benefit to "real" synthetics even over conventionals, please tell me what the true benefit is other than peace of mind and stroking of your own ego that you spend more on maintenance than others do?

If the second answer (price point) is no as well, who would ever pay more for plain old refined crude than GTL if performance is the same? So OP, my answer is yes, PP is synthetic.


I'm not sure how answering that bit does anything for the Group IV/V argument though

PAO is a different base in its construct. While both it and Group III have essentially zero solvency and need to be blended with other bases for additive suspension, PAO is not a waxy base and thus isn't dependant upon PPD's for its low temperature performance. PAO has some performance advantages over Group III, and that's one of them. This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.

 

[paoester]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Yeah, or they've just chosen to cheapen the AFE product line like they did with the 0w-40 when it transitioned from being PAO-based to VISOM/PAO to now mostly GTL. If they are able to still meet the required performance targets while producing the product for less, I imagine that's the route they'll choose to go. Given their use of GTL in many of their products now, and the presentation that indicated that VISOM was designed to be an intermediate product until GTL bases were available to replace it, this really shouldn't be a surprise.

I expect that, where possible, we'll see Mobil transition from PAO to GTL, using PAO as a supplementary base rather than a major component. It makes sense if they are able to procure GTL for less than it costs them to produce PAO, which they can then sell on the market to somebody else. PAO is expensive.

 

[4WD]

And it will likely remain in the EP (not sure what happens with AP, but I now have lots of it for half price or less).
Let's not forget that PP has been in no rush to enter the "extended" market and that AFE is not plugged for that (although PSD sure made long runs with it).

 

[GenaFishbeck]

Hi there!

Pennzoil Platinum is 100% synthetic. As discussed in the thread, "synthetic" is a marketing term here in the US market. The basis of Pennzoil's synthetic claim for Pennzoil Platinum is that each and every molecule is made by chemical synthesis, as you will find with PAO. Pennzoil Platinum is made from natural gas, each molecule of natural gas being synthetized into to performance leading Gas-To-Liquid base oil. Pennzoil Platinum is not derived from crude petroleum oil or from "Hydro-cracked petroleum oil". By the commonly understood US legal, marketing, technical, OEM standards and chemical definitions, Pennzoil Platinum is truly a full synthetic motor oil.

Pennzoil sets a standard in being "synthetic" that other motor oils might struggle to meet, for example all Pennzoil Platinum grades are entirely composed of modern full synthetic base oil, offering the customer real performance such as better oil volatility and better oxidation stability leading to consistent oil performance for longer.

Pennzoil has invested in gas-to-liquid technology to progress full synthetic motor oil performance, unlike many oil marketers who continue to offer technology developed decades ago. You will have seen our full synthetic technology regularly beating other motor oil brands in US motorsports, such as Joey Logano winning the NASCAR Championship in 2018 and Simon Pagenaud winning the 2019 Indianapolis 500.

Thanks,
Gena

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by GenaFishbeck
Hi there!

Pennzoil Platinum is 100% synthetic. As discussed in the thread, "synthetic" is a marketing term here in the US market. The basis of Pennzoil's synthetic claim for Pennzoil Platinum is that each and every molecule is made by chemical synthesis, as you will find with PAO. Pennzoil Platinum is made from natural gas, each molecule of natural gas being synthetized into to performance leading Gas-To-Liquid base oil. Pennzoil Platinum is not derived from crude petroleum oil or from "Hydro-cracked petroleum oil". By the commonly understood US legal, marketing, technical, OEM standards and chemical definitions, Pennzoil Platinum is truly a full synthetic motor oil.

Pennzoil sets a standard in being "synthetic" that other motor oils might struggle to meet, for example all Pennzoil Platinum grades are entirely composed of modern full synthetic base oil, offering the customer real performance such as better oil volatility and better oxidation stability leading to consistent oil performance for longer.

Pennzoil has invested in gas-to-liquid technology to progress full synthetic motor oil performance, unlike many oil marketers who continue to offer technology developed decades ago. You will have seen our full synthetic technology regularly beating other motor oil brands in US motorsports, such as Joey Logano winning the NASCAR Championship in 2018 and Simon Pagenaud winning the 2019 Indianapolis 500.

Thanks,
Gena

Thanks for weighing in Gena..👠any word on the Dexos certs for the new product lineup? And IIRC, you indicated in the past that certain current PP/PUP products will meet GF-6 without needing reformulation, is this still true or did I get that wrong?

 

[Luftmasse]

Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Thought the Mobil 1 AFE version and Vanila had 40% PAO?

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Thought the Mobil 1 AFE version and Vanila had 40% PAO?

Wrong!
There's no Mobil-1 0W20 Vanilla anyways.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Thought the Mobil 1 AFE version and Vanila had 40% PAO?




Search the M1 site for the SDS of these oils. M1 is very upfront on what their base oil composition is.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Thought the Mobil 1 AFE version and Vanila had 40% PAO?

Wrong!
There's no Mobil-1 0W20 Vanilla anyways.


Technically AFE is the vanilla version, as the AFE oils were both originally silver top/label offerings but Mobil spun them out under their own heading years back.

 

[PowerSurge]

Originally Posted by GenaFishbeck
Hi there!

Pennzoil Platinum is 100% synthetic....

Thanks,
Gena


If that is the case, then why not place "100% Synthetic" on the packaging instead of "Full Synthetic"?

 

[Luftmasse]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Thought the Mobil 1 AFE version and Vanila had 40% PAO?

Wrong!
There's no Mobil-1 0W20 Vanilla anyways.


Never stated Mobil 1 0w20 Vanilla. I said Vanilla ones and AFE. That goes for any grade oil.

 

[Luftmasse]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is likely why we see PAO still being used in XOM's 0w-xx's despite its higher cost. You can use a slightly heavier PAO base and less VI and not require the use of PPD's, which likely makes meeting certain performance targets easier.
M1 AFE 0w20 recently lost all its PAO. This must be because their additive technology is advanced enough now to meet all the dexos1, maybe ACEA, & SP/GF6 specs they target. (M1 AFE 0w30 has only 10% PAO and their other upscale premium type 0w20's are mostly PAO.)

It is true, PAO is not the whole game here. With access to a vast catalog of proprietary additive chemicals & experience, some big oil companies can check all the peformance boxes just fine with mostly or all Group3/3+.


Thought the Mobil 1 AFE version and Vanila had 40% PAO?




Search the M1 site for the SDS of these oils. M1 is very upfront on what their base oil composition is.


You are right. The AFE 0w20 is not PAO, but majority of GTL base.

What you think about Mobil 1 AFE vs Pennzoil Platinum, which has better base oil?

 

[IndyFan]

Originally Posted by GenaFishbeck
Hi there!

Pennzoil Platinum is 100% synthetic. As discussed in the thread, "synthetic" is a marketing term here in the US market. The basis of Pennzoil's synthetic claim for Pennzoil Platinum is that each and every molecule is made by chemical synthesis, as you will find with PAO. Pennzoil Platinum is made from natural gas, each molecule of natural gas being synthetized into to performance leading Gas-To-Liquid base oil. Pennzoil Platinum is not derived from crude petroleum oil or from "Hydro-cracked petroleum oil". By the commonly understood US legal, marketing, technical, OEM standards and chemical definitions, Pennzoil Platinum is truly a full synthetic motor oil.

Pennzoil sets a standard in being "synthetic" that other motor oils might struggle to meet, for example all Pennzoil Platinum grades are entirely composed of modern full synthetic base oil, offering the customer real performance such as better oil volatility and better oxidation stability leading to consistent oil performance for longer.

Pennzoil has invested in gas-to-liquid technology to progress full synthetic motor oil performance, unlike many oil marketers who continue to offer technology developed decades ago. You will have seen our full synthetic technology regularly beating other motor oil brands in US motorsports, such as Joey Logano winning the NASCAR Championship in 2018 and Simon Pagenaud winning the 2019 Indianapolis 500.

Thanks,
Gena


Thanks for acknolwedging that "synthetic" is a marketing term.