Another motorcraft failure

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I stopped using the 820s and use Fram now. I will still use FL1A's on my older Fords, haven't seen or heard of issues with them.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BlueOvalFitter
This will not stop me from using MC FL-400S filters. I don't need 5 minutes of fame to change my mind.
coffee2.gif


No, we know what gave you 5 minutes of fame (at least some of us remember.)

So you are saying the OP's 5 minutes of fame is to post a deceptive or false claim?


I blew right past that comment as it was not adding or helping in any constructive way.... I for one don't know what his 5 minutes was about but I hope this wasn't my 5. This isn't even my vehicle. I am the Foreman for a municipal fleet of about 50 vehicles. I also do the purchasing and stocking of all vehicle related items. All this tells me is that maybe the local tax payers money can be spent on a better product to protect their investment. No fame needed, just felt like sharing. Sorry I struck such a nerve with you and your FL400. As a side note my vehicles (all Fords) have either a Hastings or Federated labeled Premium Guard filters on them. Look at that, I just got another 2 minutes.
 
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Originally Posted by BlueOvalFitter
This will not stop me from using MC FL-400S filters. I don't need 5 minutes of fame to change my mind.
coffee2.gif


The smaller ones seem better, the FL-400S ones (& FL-910S ones I've seen) have mostly been fine. As long as you don't use them for TWO OCIS!!!
lol.gif

The bigger ones are JUNK.
 
I just put a FL820s on my mustang. I'll be selling it soon - oh well. Seems like every filter maker has some duds on occasion.
 
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
Originally Posted by BlueOvalFitter
This will not stop me from using MC FL-400S filters. I don't need 5 minutes of fame to change my mind.
coffee2.gif


The smaller ones seem better, the FL-400S ones (& FL-910S ones I've seen) have mostly been fine. As long as you don't use them for TWO OCIS!!!
lol.gif

The bigger ones are JUNK.


Remember the rule:

One Motorcrap filter, One OCI! Then check for tears.
 
Originally Posted by CharlieBauer
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
Originally Posted by BlueOvalFitter
This will not stop me from using MC FL-400S filters. I don't need 5 minutes of fame to change my mind.
coffee2.gif


The smaller ones seem better, the FL-400S ones (& FL-910S ones I've seen) have mostly been fine. As long as you don't use them for TWO OCIS!!!
lol.gif

The bigger ones are JUNK.


Remember the rule:

One Motorcrap filter, One OCI! Then check for tears.

It's a BOF inside joke-I use the Ultras for multiple OCIs, he thinks I'm crazy. Not crazy enough to use an FL-820S, though!
 
Originally Posted by cb_13
Originally Posted by paoester
Googling
purolator tear site:bobistheoilguy.com
reveals a lot of this. Puro makes Motorcraft.
Ford even had a video for techs that said to look for pieces of oil filter clogging variable valve hydraulic paths inside the engine!
And yet Ford, as is typical for the idiots running that company, years later still does nothing.

At the time that tsb came out for the 5.4 3v engines the blame was being placed on aftermarket filters. Now the recommended Motorcraft filters are the ones having the issues.
I'd really like to see Ford change a few suppliers maybe move to East Penn batteries from Johnson Controls and either Wix or Fram oil filters from Purolator.

Wix were one of my favorites, but they are made by Mann-Hummel now too.
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mpgo4th,

Thanks for the pic/update.

I was a Purolator fanboy back in the day. I won't use them now but will say that between 2006 and 2018 I never had a tear with a Motorcraft/Purolator cartridge oil filter on my '06 4 cyl Fusion.
 
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
Its always the same place. A media tear near the hard metal end cap. Don't hear about that happening with a paper end cap Fram. Maybe because a paper end cap flexes during high pressure, high RPM situations ?


The presumption that this is happening in service could be a false one. I'm not saying you're wrong, but noting that other potential conditions exist.

Have we any decent amount of data from virgin filters being cut upon? Do we have a fair sense of the % of failures relative to both new and used filters?

It is entirely possible that the tear is happening during manufacturing handling or assembly. I cannot prove that, but no one to this point can disprove it either. As a person that has worked in manufacturing my entire adult life (Ford and then the HVAC industry), I can tell you that manufacturing defects happen. Processes change. Parts change. Vendors change. Machines change. Materials change. Chemical change. Personnel change. All these nuances lead to unforeseen defects at times.

The potential to tear may not manifest in all filters. It's pretty obvious that it's intermittent. But it's also apparent that it's not that "rare" either.

We'd have a much better understanding if we also cut open a large quantity of new filters and looked for tears or weak spots that would be susceptible to tears.
 
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The FL500s has not been one with a known issue, but I will not say I am surprised.

Originally Posted by LeakySeals
Its always the same place. A media tear near the hard metal end cap. Don't hear about that happening with a paper end cap Fram. Maybe because a paper end cap flexes during high pressure, high RPM situations ?

It is also always on the pleat on either side of the seam.
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3
The presumption that this is happening in service could be a false one. I'm not saying you're wrong, but noting that other potential conditions exist.
True, but (yeah, your infamous, yeah but), it seems to be prevalent with certain models of MC and Purolator filters and (for me) it matters not when it happens--either in manufacturing or in operation, it only matters that it does and is happening. Far too many other brands on the market to buy a filter that has known issues.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Far too many other brands on the market to buy a filter that has known issues.

My feelings exactly. Why bother using Purolator when there are much better options, which are less problem prone.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by dnewton3
The presumption that this is happening in service could be a false one. I'm not saying you're wrong, but noting that other potential conditions exist.
True, but (yeah, your infamous, yeah but), it seems to be prevalent with certain models of MC and Purolator filters and (for me) it matters not when it happens--either in manufacturing or in operation, it only matters that it does and is happening. Far too many other brands on the market to buy a filter that has known issues.

If this were the first time seeing it and I made that comment then yes agree it would be a presumption. But we have at least 5 years of similar posts with similar visual proof in this forum. Pics of used filters with a tear in the paper media right where it glues to a rigid metal end cap. None (that I'm aware of) that show virgin filters like that. None (that I'm aware of) that show a used cardboard end cap Orange COD or TG failing like that. Its the presumption that paper end caps are bad and metal end caps are good that I think is false.
 
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
Originally Posted by BlueOvalFitter
This will not stop me from using MC FL-400S filters. I don't need 5 minutes of fame to change my mind.
coffee2.gif


The smaller ones seem better, the FL-400S ones (& FL-910S ones I've seen) have mostly been fine. As long as you don't use them for TWO OCIS!!!
lol.gif

The bigger ones are JUNK.

I have used the 910S for years with never a problem. I also use the MC 2017B cartridge in my 2007 Fusion and no issues there either. Both at 10K OCIs.
 
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Originally Posted by LeakySeals
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by dnewton3
The presumption that this is happening in service could be a false one. I'm not saying you're wrong, but noting that other potential conditions exist.
True, but (yeah, your infamous, yeah but), it seems to be prevalent with certain models of MC and Purolator filters and (for me) it matters not when it happens--either in manufacturing or in operation, it only matters that it does and is happening. Far too many other brands on the market to buy a filter that has known issues.

If this were the first time seeing it and I made that comment then yes agree it would be a presumption. But we have at least 5 years of similar posts with similar visual proof in this forum. Pics of used filters with a tear in the paper media right where it glues to a rigid metal end cap. None (that I'm aware of) that show virgin filters like that. None (that I'm aware of) that show a used cardboard end cap Orange COD or TG failing like that. Its the presumption that paper end caps are bad and metal end caps are good that I think is false.


I'm not convinced of anything other than there's clearly an issue afoot, and has been for a while. Seemed that it was constrained to only some filters, but now it seems it may be creeping outward.
The engineer in me wants to know the root cause.
The consumer in me says "results are what matters most" and so this probably will put me off MC filters until some evidence comes forward that the issue is resolved.

The Fram EG (aka Orange Can of Delight) is looking better every day, now that they include silicone ADBV.
 
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Weak/thin media - I cut open several new filters and that included MC and the P1.
With my fingers I was able to easily tear the pleat. For comparison - not able to do that on Mobil 1 blended media which leaves me thinking these are pure paper.
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3
I'm not convinced of anything other than there's clearly an issue afoot, and has been for a while. Seemed that it was constrained to only some filters, but now it seems it may be creeping outward.
The engineer in me wants to know the root cause.
The consumer in me says "results are what matters most" and so this probably will put me off MC filters until some evidence comes forward that the issue is resolved.

The Fram EG (aka Orange Can of Delight) is looking better every day, now that they include silicone ADBV.


Yes, it is becoming the can of delight LOL. What troubles me is the sample size. Some say its just a couple, a fluke, no cause for concern. But think about it this way. The autopsys performed on here are a teeny tiny fraction of the total in use. To find not just one but 2 failures in that tiny sample size is like hitting the lottery. Twice.

Or..

This is a really big problem. And we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by dnewton3
The presumption that this is happening in service could be a false one. I'm not saying you're wrong, but noting that other potential conditions exist.
True, but (yeah, your infamous, yeah but), it seems to be prevalent with certain models of MC and Purolator filters and (for me) it matters not when it happens--either in manufacturing or in operation, it only matters that it does and is happening. Far too many other brands on the market to buy a filter that has known issues.

If this were the first time seeing it and I made that comment then yes agree it would be a presumption. But we have at least 5 years of similar posts with similar visual proof in this forum. Pics of used filters with a tear in the paper media right where it glues to a rigid metal end cap. None (that I'm aware of) that show virgin filters like that. None (that I'm aware of) that show a used cardboard end cap Orange COD or TG failing like that. Its the presumption that paper end caps are bad and metal end caps are good that I think is false.


I'm not convinced of anything other than there's clearly an issue afoot, and has been for a while. Seemed that it was constrained to only some filters, but now it seems it may be creeping outward.
The engineer in me wants to know the root cause.
The consumer in me says "results are what matters most" and so this probably will put me off MC filters until some evidence comes forward that the issue is resolved.

The Fram EG (aka Orange Can of Delight) is looking better every day, now that they include silicone ADBV.

The big MC tearing problems seem much more common on filters that have metal seam crimps (although glued ones have failed on occasion as well). Until we find a way to cut new ones open, weld them back together, use them, and cut them open again we'll never know for sure!
crazy.gif
BUT-when better alternatives are available for not much more money (M1, Ultra, RP, even Fram Tough Guard & Extra Guards), it seems kind of dumb to risk it. Like the Johnson Controls batteries listed above-when you've personally had a couple of them fail, one with potentially deadly results from rust & corrosion, why use inferior products at all??
 
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
Some say its just a couple, a fluke, no cause for concern. But think about it this way. The autopsys performed on here are a teeny tiny fraction of the total in use. To find not just one but 2 failures in that tiny sample size is like hitting the lottery. Twice.

Or..

This is a really big problem. And we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.


Anyone who has read this forum for a long time knows there have been more than a few reports over the last 4~5 years. It's more like nearly 100 or more. When all the reported media tearing started, member Stu_Rock (iirc) started an Excel spreadsheet of all reported cases - covering all filter brands. Someone might have the link to that spreadsheet. It was stopped being updated along the way, so many more torn media reports (mainly Purolator made filters) had been made since. And that was just a record of torn filters just found by BITOG members. I doubt only the bad filters found their way into the hands of only BITOG members - the odds of that would be very high. So I'm sure there were many torn filters on the road that never got cut open for inspection.

dnewton - I don't recall seeing any virgin filter cuts showing torn media. There was a troll that infiltrated BITOG during all the torn Purolator talk, and he posted a thread claiming he use to work for Purolator manufacturing, and that the tearing was caused about faulty manufacturing. But that thread was deleted a day or two after it was started. Someone might be able to find that thread cached on the internet time machine.

But if the media was torn or damaged during manufacturing, then a virgin filter cut and inspection would have most likely found a few cases.

I think the root cause is pretty evident based on tons of reports showing photos of the tears. The tears were always on pleats that were widely spaced apart, and showed signs of bending/folding over due to the delta-p across them from oil flow. Always seemed to be more torn reports on filters used over the winter months when filters get exposed to higher delta-p force due to thicker oil in the cold winter months.

And has been mentioned, the media on the torn filters showed to be very brittle, and tore easily by simply pushing the pleat sideways with a finger - I did this myself, and it was surprising how easy it tore.

So, the formula for root cause becomes:

Brittle media + Wide pleat spacing + High delta-p = Torn media.

Need all three factors added together for media failure.
 
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