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Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5290558 12/10/19 03:39 PM
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jetman Offline
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Hi Ken, you know me from the Tahoe/Yukon forum(donjetman).

Your copper and lead counts are NOT good. Everything else is good. dnewton3 is spot on.

I don't know if your remote oil filters are in series or parallel to one another?? If the filters are in series you can't run a bypass filter or you will starve the engine of oil volume and pressure. If they're parallel, you can run a bypass filter in one of the filter positions. Ideally, install a restrictor plug in either the inlet or outlet(has the same effect) of only the filer head that the bypass filter element is on. Drill a hole in the plug no larger that .100". You'll know when the bypass needs changing by keeping an eye on the temp differential between the 2 filter elements with an IR temp gun(Harbor Frt)

What brand and weight oil are you running?

Fram Ultra filters(XG) are of the highest quality, especially for xOCIs.

I understand you wanting more sump capacity.The larger the sump, the longer between changes. For that I would add a remote tank with a fill cap and drain cock, not two oil filters. Your engine as zero need for all that full flow filtering capacity. The stock full flow position can accommodate a larger than stock(4.9" tall vs stock 3.3") Wix 57045 or 57045XP or Baldwin B7444 or NAPA 7045. The tallest XG Fram that I can find that will fit the 22mm x 1.5 threads is a XG10575(4.1" tall).

I run a engine oil bypass setup on my 07 6.2L Yukon. I am using a remote filter head that accepts a Amsoil EaBP90 spin on filter element. The thread is 1" x 12. I got my filter head yrs ago from www.paretopoint.com. Amsoil sells these filter and/or head. Adds about 3/4 qt to the sump capacity. My remote bypass filter setup is plumbed into the pad where the oil cooler ports are. I do NOT run an oil cooler. If I were to put one on it would be the Tru-Cool H7B engine oil cooler with their 708-4739 cold wx bypass.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Fulltime DIYer, retired pilot
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Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: jetman] #5290747 12/10/19 06:53 PM
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Kbuskill Offline OP
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Hey, good to see you over here. I have been a lurker over here for quite some time, finally decided to join.

My filters are in parallel.

I know the threaded nipple that the oil filters screw onto can be changed out for different thread pitches. Does anyone sell a new nipple that has a restrictor built into it???

I run Mobil 1 EP 15k mile 5w30.

My oil cooler is plumbed inline after my remote mount filters and before it goes back to the engine.

Adding the bypass filter to the factory oil cooler port is a good idea. I might look into that if adding the bypass filter to my current remote mount ends up being to much work.

About how often do you have to change the bypass filter???

Last edited by Kbuskill; 12/10/19 06:55 PM.
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5290842 12/10/19 08:19 PM
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Kbuskill Offline OP
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Found some Wix filters that appear to already have the restrictor built in.

What say you?

Obviously this filter won't screw onto my remote mount kit because it's the wrong thread pitch.

From what I have read all the bypass filters run an "odd" thread pitch to keep people from accidentally installing them in a full flow location.

Any idea where I can get a nipple that will screw into my Derale mount that fits a bypass filter?

rps20191210_211610_185.jpgrps20191210_211641_732.jpg
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5291069 12/11/19 05:19 AM
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dnewton3 Online Content
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Originally Posted by Kbuskill
... What say you?

I'd say you're more fixated on filtration than finding the source of the Pb and Cu ... And that's fine by me; do what you want to do - nothing wrong with that.
But you came and asked a question about your UOA data, and yet you're all about "more" of everything (more filters, more oil volume, more gadgets). Everything but more logic. No filter is going to solve your wear metal conundrum.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: dnewton3] #5291085 12/11/19 05:55 AM
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demarpaint Offline
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Originally Posted by Kbuskill
... What say you?

I'd say you're more fixated on filtration than finding the source of the Pb and Cu ... And that's fine by me; do what you want to do - nothing wrong with that.
But you came and asked a question about your UOA data, and yet you're all about "more" of everything (more filters, more oil volume, more gadgets). Everything but more logic. No filter is going to solve your wear metal conundrum.


This is true. The wear is still there, all the filter/filters are doing is filtering out the wear metals. It isn't going stop, slow, or reduce it. I'd be looking for the problem.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: dnewton3] #5291111 12/11/19 06:50 AM
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Kbuskill Offline OP
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I understand what your saying and it makes sense.

I was simply asking about the bypass filters for future reference, thanks for helping out with that.

I am fairly convinced that the lead is coming from the cooler. I say that because if there were that much lead coming from a bearing it should be making a decent amount of noise I would think.

I will have to do some thinking on what the best way to bypass the oil cooler is, as I mentioned earlier it has very stiff hydraulic lines going to all of it so it not like I can just reroute it.

I might have to completely bypass the whole system and just screw a regular filter onto it, which again is easier said than done.

Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5291167 12/11/19 08:05 AM
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dave1251 Offline
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Originally Posted by Kbuskill
Good info.

I haven't researched oil filters in a while but I remember that Fram used to be garbage (cardboard end caps, etc.). Mobil 1 says their extended performance filters have a "synthetic blend" filter media.

Last time I checked the K&N, Mobil1 EP, and Wix gold were some of the better filters... as far as build quality was concerned (metal end caps, more pleats, better media).

But I'm willing to learn.

As far as running the bypass filter is concerned. How would I know when to change it?

I know the safe bet would be every oil change but would I be throwing away a half used oil filter at that point?

I know that is a hypothetical question and there is no good answer. I'm just looking for a generalization.

Aside from touching the filter after the engine is up to operating temperature... I'm assuming if the filter was plugged oil wouldn't be flowing through it... and seeing if it was cool to the touch, I wouldn't know how to check it.



You are fine. The person giving you advise it not wrong nor is his heart in the wrong place but worrying about micron efficiency less that 5% in a double bypass set up gains nothing.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5291476 12/11/19 12:00 PM
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jetman Offline
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Here is a Wix link with their various bypass filter elements, etc. .LINK

Correct me if I'm wrong. Ken, your GM LS engine, like mine, has a separate oil cooler circuit and pad on the block. My understanding is you are NOT utilizing the oil cooler circuit/pad for your cheap and probably restrictive oil cooler. You are utilizing the oil filtration circuit, and have an adapter where the stock oil filter would normally go. From this adapter, an oil line goes to the remote dual full flow filter mount inlet, then out of it and thru the cheap oil cooler, then back to the adapter and into the engine.

If this is the case?, I believe you may be starving your engine of oil "volume" and thus slowly killing the bearings etc. It's not bad enough yet to hear a knock. I hope I'm wrong.

I recommend you put everything back to stock, change the oil and filter, drive it for a couple hundred miles just to flush out the current load, change the oil and filter with what you have been using, and after 5000 miles send in a sample for analysis.

Or not


Fulltime DIYer, retired pilot
12 MKX 3.7
07 Yukon 6.2
07 Toyota FJ 4.0
96 Prevost XL40 12.7
51 Chevy 5w PU Resto 5.3
92 TopSportsman Firebird w/604
241" 4link Dragster w/565
83 Glasair! TD
90 Ez-Go 2-cysle GC
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: jetman] #5291698 12/11/19 04:36 PM
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Kbuskill Offline OP
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You are correct that I am not currently using the factory oil cooler connection above the factory oil filter location. It is indeed currently blocked off. It does in fact run from the adapter at the factory oil filter location out to the remote mount filters and then through the cooler and back to the adapter at the engine.

To give a little back story on how this all got started...

I had a small intermittent ticking on the drivers side of the engine which I attributed to lifter ticking. It would sometimes occur immediately after start up and tick for a few seconds and then stop. It also sometimes would start ticking after sitting and idling for 20+ minutes and after driving again it would go away.

I decided that I would replace the oil pump and O-ring on the pickup tube, along with a new timing chain while I was that far in. I installed a Mellings HV/HP pump. My 5.3L is an LMG (flex fuel) engine which came from the factory with a HV oil pump. I decided since the truck had 185k miles at the time that a little bit extra oil pressure wasn't a bad thing so I installed the HV/HP pump which was supposed to increase pressure by 10%.

After getting everything put back together all was well, no more lifter ticking BUT after driving it for a few days I got a check engine light... pulled the code and it was oil pressure sensor out of range. Ok no big deal. Pulled the old switch and screen and installed new. Drove a little bit same issue.

Now mind you prior to me installing the new oil pump my oil pressure would be 45-50 on a cold start and 20-25 hot idle.

After the new oil pump I would see 70-75 cold start and 60-65 hot idle.

Needless to say, the ECM didn't like seeing the oil pressure that high because it didn't fall into what it was programmed to see as "normal range".

In an attempt to lower the oil pressure enough to make the ECM happy I installed this dual filter setup and the oil cooler using the factory oil filter location, ON PURPOSE, to try and lower the pressure a bit by introducing some restrictions into the system.

While it did lower the pressure a little bit, it still was not enough. I contacted Black Bear Performance to see if they could adjust the parameters in the ECM for the oil pressure range... they could not.

I ended up buying a 2' long oil pressure sensor pigtail extension and installing a resistor inline on it and plugging that inline between the oil pressure sensor and the trucks wiring harness to "lower" the oil pressure that the ECM and gauge "see". This does not make the oil pressure gauge non functional, it still functions just as it always has, it just reads about 15 PSI lower than the actual oil pressure. The ECM is happy and I don't have a check engine light which would keep me from remote starting the truck, which I use all the time because I am a big proponent of warming up a vehicle before driving it.

So I SERIOUSLY doubt that it is causing a problem with LOW oil pressure.

The cooler I am running has 1/2" NPT fittings. This is a picture of the cooler I have.

rps20191211_173547_337.jpg
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5291961 12/11/19 10:28 PM
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Artem Offline
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Strange / interesting situation seeing wear skyrocket like that outta the blue.

My gears are turning, wondering what the results would be without the additional filtration but using the factory spin on.

If the dual filters are removing more metal from the oil... isn’t the actual wear technically MUCH higher then indicated in the UOA?

That points to a source producing a ridiculous amount of Lead or the bearings are indeed wearing down and although you might not notice any knocking yet... it will come eventually.

I’m torn between suggesting you experiment and find the root cause of the spiked metals OR... leave everything as is and see what happens as you rack up more miles.

Wouldn’t be surprised if it keeps going for many many years without any problem or... she blows up on you once the bearings call it quits.

Either way... I’m in for updates.

popcorn


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5291966 12/11/19 10:34 PM
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Did you add a leaded fuel additive to your tank? (scraping for ideas)

It can sometimes not even be engine related. I've seen very high lead (>400 ppm) and copper (>100 ppm) wear in UOA that turned out to be due to excessive charge pressure in the transmission. The guy increased the charge pressure to tighten up the torque converter (a common "trick") but that high pressure was pounding on the flexplate and crankshaft causing the crank to want to walk around in the bores, eating at the sides of the bearings.

Last edited by RDY4WAR; 12/11/19 10:41 PM.

"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Artem] #5292546 12/12/19 02:34 PM
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Kbuskill Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Artem
Strange / interesting situation seeing wear skyrocket like that outta the blue.

My gears are turning, wondering what the results would be without the additional filtration but using the factory spin on.

If the dual filters are removing more metal from the oil... isn’t the actual wear technically MUCH higher then indicated in the UOA?

That points to a source producing a ridiculous amount of Lead or the bearings are indeed wearing down and although you might not notice any knocking yet... it will come eventually.

I’m torn between suggesting you experiment and find the root cause of the spiked metals OR... leave everything as is and see what happens as you rack up more miles.

Wouldn’t be surprised if it keeps going for many many years without any problem or... she blows up on you once the bearings call it quits.

Either way... I’m in for updates.

popcorn


I wish I had done a UOA before adding the aftermarket stuff so that I had a good baseline to go off of... unfortunately I never did one... I guess only time will tell... it's a lot of aggravation to go to the trouble of disconnecting all the hoses and adapters and stuff to go back to a stock oil filter.

I will be sure and post the results from the 6k mile sample I just sent off. If the PO does their job correctly Blackstone should have the sample in hand today.

Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Artem] #5292550 12/12/19 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Artem
If the dual filters are removing more metal from the oil... isn’t the actual wear technically MUCH higher then indicated in the UOA?

The metals showing up in the UOA are not causing wear but they may be the result of it. An ICP cannot generally measure wear-causing particles without additional processing such as an acid digestion. Without a filter washing and digestion no one knows how much damage producing material there was or may be in the oil.

What is showing up in the UOA may not even be a result of wear, it could be corrosion or leaching or any other chemical process. It may not have any affect or correlation to mechanical wear whatsoever.


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Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: RDY4WAR] #5292555 12/12/19 02:45 PM
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Kbuskill Offline OP
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Did you add a leaded fuel additive to your tank? (scraping for ideas)

It can sometimes not even be engine related. I've seen very high lead (>400 ppm) and copper (>100 ppm) wear in UOA that turned out to be due to excessive charge pressure in the transmission. The guy increased the charge pressure to tighten up the torque converter (a common "trick") but that high pressure was pounding on the flexplate and crankshaft causing the crank to want to walk around in the bores, eating at the sides of the bearings.


No I haven't added a leaded fuel additive, that I am aware of.

The only fuel additives I have used in the past are the Techron injector cleaner with PEA and the Lucas fuel injector cleaner.

Granted, when I use the injector cleaner I heavily overdose it. Like a half gallon to a quarter tank of fuel, Suburban tank is 31 gallons BTW, so roughly a half gallon to 7-8 gallons.

Not sure if that would affect it or not.

Re: UOA for my extended OCIs [Re: Kbuskill] #5293119 12/13/19 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kbuskill
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Did you add a leaded fuel additive to your tank? (scraping for ideas)

It can sometimes not even be engine related. I've seen very high lead (>400 ppm) and copper (>100 ppm) wear in UOA that turned out to be due to excessive charge pressure in the transmission. The guy increased the charge pressure to tighten up the torque converter (a common "trick") but that high pressure was pounding on the flexplate and crankshaft causing the crank to want to walk around in the bores, eating at the sides of the bearings.


No I haven't added a leaded fuel additive, that I am aware of.

The only fuel additives I have used in the past are the Techron injector cleaner with PEA and the Lucas fuel injector cleaner.

Granted, when I use the injector cleaner I heavily overdose it. Like a half gallon to a quarter tank of fuel, Suburban tank is 31 gallons BTW, so roughly a half gallon to 7-8 gallons.

Not sure if that would affect it or not.



Yes non PEA based fuel system cleaners has shown to cause an uptick in lead readings in UOA's. This is one of the reasons why Terry Dyson back in the day recommended using Valvoline fuel system cleaner because it did not cause an increase in lead in UOA's.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
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