When the repair bill is 3.5 times what was estimated.
- Thread starter The motor guy
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I had/have an ongoing issue when we had our horse trailer repaired. It required some structural and sheet metal work. Went to a local guy we knew, dropped it off for a few days and discussed what was needed. Quoted us 5k. Mistake 1: did not get a written quote.
Small town, guy has a well established shop and we agree upon the work, 4.5 month timeline and that I would come out and do some of the work to keep the bill lower.
Mistake 2: trusted him. I tore the trailer down. Gutted the thing as it was supposed to roll into his shop before the worst of winter hits. The thing does not even go into the shop until near the deadline. Call after call trying to light a fire under his [censored], go to the shop and so on so forth.
We had to buy a little used 2 horse trailer to use because of the inaction. Then the thing gets done, have no time to inspect it as my wife needs to load the thing up and go to a show with client horses. Brakes did not work and just a poor finished project. Go back a few days later to look at the bill. 8700$. Ok I say and leave. Send the guy 1200 to pay for half the material cost and then send a registered letter outlining all of our concerns, that we will not pay what the bill states and if that is an issue, then small claims court or arbitration will work. Guy responds with no offer to discuss the issues. Done. That was over 4 years ago so it can no longer be disputed in court. Had a few run ins with the guy at local businesses. Turned into a swearing contest.
While I absolutely hate leaving a bill unpaid, we felt the work was shoddy and refused to pay unless a compromise could have been reached. The guy was impossible to get updates from and just overall a terrible experience. That's not how you run a business and you should have no issues not paying the full amount. The customer should not have to pay for the owners poor performance.
Small town, guy has a well established shop and we agree upon the work, 4.5 month timeline and that I would come out and do some of the work to keep the bill lower.
Mistake 2: trusted him. I tore the trailer down. Gutted the thing as it was supposed to roll into his shop before the worst of winter hits. The thing does not even go into the shop until near the deadline. Call after call trying to light a fire under his [censored], go to the shop and so on so forth.
We had to buy a little used 2 horse trailer to use because of the inaction. Then the thing gets done, have no time to inspect it as my wife needs to load the thing up and go to a show with client horses. Brakes did not work and just a poor finished project. Go back a few days later to look at the bill. 8700$. Ok I say and leave. Send the guy 1200 to pay for half the material cost and then send a registered letter outlining all of our concerns, that we will not pay what the bill states and if that is an issue, then small claims court or arbitration will work. Guy responds with no offer to discuss the issues. Done. That was over 4 years ago so it can no longer be disputed in court. Had a few run ins with the guy at local businesses. Turned into a swearing contest.
While I absolutely hate leaving a bill unpaid, we felt the work was shoddy and refused to pay unless a compromise could have been reached. The guy was impossible to get updates from and just overall a terrible experience. That's not how you run a business and you should have no issues not paying the full amount. The customer should not have to pay for the owners poor performance.
Originally Posted by Dave9
^ It's not the other way around once the bill is paid. That constitutes acceptance, and places the burden on the customer to prove the bill was above the estimate by more than the amount legally allowed in that state. It was authorized work, so if the repairer loses the estimate that's not necessarily going to mean the customer pays nothing. It would be funny to hear a plaintiff state that they brought their XYZ to a repair shop and left it there to get nothing done.
Why would you sue for the max of $5K-$7K when the difference is only $3K?
Because states allow you to sue to 2-3x damages. So if it's a 3k difference, you could sue for up to 9k. The threat of a 9k judgement is supposed to make them pay up the 3k otherwise if you just sue for 3k, they have nothing to lose by waiting for you to file.
Also it's up to the defendant to prove that they had a signed estimate authorizing the work.
^ It's not the other way around once the bill is paid. That constitutes acceptance, and places the burden on the customer to prove the bill was above the estimate by more than the amount legally allowed in that state. It was authorized work, so if the repairer loses the estimate that's not necessarily going to mean the customer pays nothing. It would be funny to hear a plaintiff state that they brought their XYZ to a repair shop and left it there to get nothing done.
Why would you sue for the max of $5K-$7K when the difference is only $3K?
Because states allow you to sue to 2-3x damages. So if it's a 3k difference, you could sue for up to 9k. The threat of a 9k judgement is supposed to make them pay up the 3k otherwise if you just sue for 3k, they have nothing to lose by waiting for you to file.
Also it's up to the defendant to prove that they had a signed estimate authorizing the work.
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Dave9
^ It's not the other way around once the bill is paid. That constitutes acceptance, and places the burden on the customer to prove the bill was above the estimate by more than the amount legally allowed in that state. It was authorized work, so if the repairer loses the estimate that's not necessarily going to mean the customer pays nothing. It would be funny to hear a plaintiff state that they brought their XYZ to a repair shop and left it there to get nothing done.
Why would you sue for the max of $5K-$7K when the difference is only $3K?
Because states allow you to sue to 2-3x damages. So if it's a 3k difference, you could sue for up to 9k. The threat of a 9k judgement is supposed to make them pay up the 3k otherwise if you just sue for 3k, they have nothing to lose by waiting for you to file.
Also it's up to the defendant to prove that they had a signed estimate authorizing the work.
1) No, you can't sue for more than the max in that small claims court.
2) If it's 3K difference you sue for that and depending on the state law, the court "might" deem double or trebel damages.
3) No, it is not up to the defendant to prove they had an estimate if you paid for the work which constitutes acceptance of work authorization. However that does not mean acceptance of a bill over whatever that state allows. To suggest that of the shop doesn't have an estimate signed, that there is no money due, is absurd. You live in some fantasy world and that's not how reality works, and everyone with common sense knows that, that if work was done, "some" money is owed.
4) You are delusional if you think you can take a widget somewhere and not pay for the work you authorized them to do. Don't be ridiculous and if you pull that in court, the judge will get very tired of you, very quickly.
It is very valid to dispute the overcharge. It is not at all valid to pull the nonsense you suggest, and anyone foolish enough to attempt that, might just screw themselves out of what they are due.
Again, only a fool would think they can take a widget to a repair place then argue there was nothing they wanted that (shop) to do to it.
Suit yourself, try to apply different principles to the facts in this situation and see where it gets you. Courts are consumer biased but that doesn't mean they lose all sense of reason as you suggest.
If you walk into court with that attitude, the judge is going to be very unfavorable and as likely throw your whole case out as tolerate any of it. Nobody likes it when someone tries to be unjustly enriched. Trying to profit from it all, is going to turn out badly more often than not.
Have you been in court much? I just don't see what you claim, happening much in real life.
I am completely in agreement that the OP should not be overcharged for this repair, but all the extra nonsense you attached to that, just no, this is not how any sane/average judge would handle this, they would award the difference between the estimate and amount paid and that's it. That is fair, and it is a good outcome, paying the estimate that was agreed upon.
Hint: Shops who pull this crap have experience with this and this is why they think they can (cost effectively) get away with it. The law needs to change.
Originally Posted by Dave9
^ It's not the other way around once the bill is paid. That constitutes acceptance, and places the burden on the customer to prove the bill was above the estimate by more than the amount legally allowed in that state. It was authorized work, so if the repairer loses the estimate that's not necessarily going to mean the customer pays nothing. It would be funny to hear a plaintiff state that they brought their XYZ to a repair shop and left it there to get nothing done.
Why would you sue for the max of $5K-$7K when the difference is only $3K?
Because states allow you to sue to 2-3x damages. So if it's a 3k difference, you could sue for up to 9k. The threat of a 9k judgement is supposed to make them pay up the 3k otherwise if you just sue for 3k, they have nothing to lose by waiting for you to file.
Also it's up to the defendant to prove that they had a signed estimate authorizing the work.
1) No, you can't sue for more than the max in that small claims court.
2) If it's 3K difference you sue for that and depending on the state law, the court "might" deem double or trebel damages.
3) No, it is not up to the defendant to prove they had an estimate if you paid for the work which constitutes acceptance of work authorization. However that does not mean acceptance of a bill over whatever that state allows. To suggest that of the shop doesn't have an estimate signed, that there is no money due, is absurd. You live in some fantasy world and that's not how reality works, and everyone with common sense knows that, that if work was done, "some" money is owed.
4) You are delusional if you think you can take a widget somewhere and not pay for the work you authorized them to do. Don't be ridiculous and if you pull that in court, the judge will get very tired of you, very quickly.
It is very valid to dispute the overcharge. It is not at all valid to pull the nonsense you suggest, and anyone foolish enough to attempt that, might just screw themselves out of what they are due.
Again, only a fool would think they can take a widget to a repair place then argue there was nothing they wanted that (shop) to do to it.
Suit yourself, try to apply different principles to the facts in this situation and see where it gets you. Courts are consumer biased but that doesn't mean they lose all sense of reason as you suggest.
If you walk into court with that attitude, the judge is going to be very unfavorable and as likely throw your whole case out as tolerate any of it. Nobody likes it when someone tries to be unjustly enriched. Trying to profit from it all, is going to turn out badly more often than not.
Have you been in court much? I just don't see what you claim, happening much in real life.
I am completely in agreement that the OP should not be overcharged for this repair, but all the extra nonsense you attached to that, just no, this is not how any sane/average judge would handle this, they would award the difference between the estimate and amount paid and that's it. That is fair, and it is a good outcome, paying the estimate that was agreed upon.
Hint: Shops who pull this crap have experience with this and this is why they think they can (cost effectively) get away with it. The law needs to change.
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Like I said, state laws vary. We have one where unfair and deceptive trade practices against consumers can have penalties up to 3x damages. First step in pursuing such a case is to cite the state law and send the business a letter offering to settle. Failure to settle means that the business could face up to 3x damages depending on what a judge wants to impose. You sue for 3x damages under the state law. It's up to the judge to agree to impose that 3x limit. Some states it's only 2x and some states don't even have such consumer protection laws. In this case, the difference is 3k and 3x damages is 9k. Because small claims is limited to 7k, you could still sue for 7k in damages.
Originally Posted by Rand
so much bad stuff happens to you. I guess they are expensive life lessons?
Seriously, OP is one of those people that I learn life lessons from.
He seems to get into so many painful spots.
The only common theme to these painful spots is the OP....
so much bad stuff happens to you. I guess they are expensive life lessons?
Seriously, OP is one of those people that I learn life lessons from.
He seems to get into so many painful spots.
The only common theme to these painful spots is the OP....
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I don't usually get ripped off money wise.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted by Rand
so much bad stuff happens to you. I guess they are expensive life lessons?
Just owning a boat is one … owning a pool is one … buying vehicles too often ? Normal.
so much bad stuff happens to you. I guess they are expensive life lessons?
Just owning a boat is one … owning a pool is one … buying vehicles too often ? Normal.
By paying bills, you lose your leverage.
Could write the marina a business letter, saying you understood the job to take 12 hours at the most as you agreed with Mr. Saleswriter in the parking lot on 12/13/14. Enclosed is a check for $1200, their shop rate of $100 times 12. I can be reached at 555-1212, please let me know when I can pick my vessel up.
Then, in the memo section of the check, write "paid in full".
If they have an issue with this, they will need to contact you and return your check. If they cash your check, they're accepting that they were in fact paid in full.
If you want to talk it over in court, the worst case scenario is you pay what you were going to pay anyway, plus maybe some storage fees.
Get in front of the argument by being the first to put thoughts to paper. They will then have to respond as to why they went beyond the estimated time.
I have a theory-- business is slow, they want to keep the mechanic billable, so they need a repair order number to bill his time to, and you were the "whale" sitting in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Could write the marina a business letter, saying you understood the job to take 12 hours at the most as you agreed with Mr. Saleswriter in the parking lot on 12/13/14. Enclosed is a check for $1200, their shop rate of $100 times 12. I can be reached at 555-1212, please let me know when I can pick my vessel up.
Then, in the memo section of the check, write "paid in full".
If they have an issue with this, they will need to contact you and return your check. If they cash your check, they're accepting that they were in fact paid in full.
If you want to talk it over in court, the worst case scenario is you pay what you were going to pay anyway, plus maybe some storage fees.
Get in front of the argument by being the first to put thoughts to paper. They will then have to respond as to why they went beyond the estimated time.
I have a theory-- business is slow, they want to keep the mechanic billable, so they need a repair order number to bill his time to, and you were the "whale" sitting in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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I always like to do stuff in the off season, but one issue eljefino brings to light is the fact that during slow times, businesses are trying to milk every penny they can from a person to make payroll. Then again this shop still had tons of new boats show up while mine was being repaired.
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