2011 Hyundai Sonata -- 3 cylinders dropped!!!

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


You don't see an advantage to 91 octane becoming the new base fuel? With the price being the same as current 87? I know most people seem to believe current premium fuel prices will become the new base price, but that is not what is being proposed, nor does it make much sense since refineries now make one fuel, and that's it, instead of two or three.

At worst any car that doesn't require it goes on with life as if nothing changes. At best, new engines come out with better efficiency than what is currently possible.



Empty promises that's all I see.

Besides, how would reducing choice and competition reduce fuel prices?

Using this logic, automakers should be mandated to make one vehicle model instead of many, say a mid size SUV, and sell it for the price of a subcompact. Would you accept such a proposal as feasible?.





That's a strawman argument and not the same thing at all. Most places only offer one grade of diesel, what's the difference?

Right now refineries are making two to three versions of gasoline, maybe more in high altitude places. If you cut that down to one you drastically reduce costs and therefore can offer a better price. It's no different than 10-15-20 years ago, airbags, abs, esc, backup cameras, tire pressure monitoring were all optional, additional expenses on a vehicle purchase. Now they are standard equipment required by law and the price to implement for the manufacturer is far, far less.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


You don't see an advantage to 91 octane becoming the new base fuel? With the price being the same as current 87? I know most people seem to believe current premium fuel prices will become the new base price, but that is not what is being proposed, nor does it make much sense since refineries now make one fuel, and that's it, instead of two or three.

At worst any car that doesn't require it goes on with life as if nothing changes. At best, new engines come out with better efficiency than what is currently possible.



Empty promises that's all I see.

Besides, how would reducing choice and competition reduce fuel prices?

Using this logic, automakers should be mandated to make one vehicle model instead of many, say a mid size SUV, and sell it for the price of a subcompact. Would you accept such a proposal as feasible?.





That's a strawman argument and not the same thing at all. Most places only offer one grade of diesel, what's the difference?

Right now refineries are making two to three versions of gasoline, maybe more in high altitude places. If you cut that down to one you drastically reduce costs and therefore can offer a better price. It's no different than 10-15-20 years ago, airbags, abs, esc, backup cameras, tire pressure monitoring were all optional, additional expenses on a vehicle purchase. Now they are standard equipment required by law and the price to implement for the manufacturer is far, far less.


There is biodiesel, so you replied to my strawman with another strawman.
Let's try another example then, oil grades. Let's mandate one oil grade and type then and argue that the price of synthetic will come down to conventional level as a result.

But no matter the examples, how are you so sure the price will come down? Are you in petro refining business?
From my perspective, you are simply repeating the talking points of auto lobbyists.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
[
Let's try another example then, oil grades. Let's mandate one oil grade and type then and argue that the price of synthetic will come down to conventional level as a result.


I'd be cool with that, sure. Synthetic will take over conventional in the next five to ten years anyway, you can't even really buy a real conventional SN oil anymore, maybe in 10w30 or 15w40... Thicker grades.

Originally Posted by KrisZ
[
From my perspective, you are simply repeating the talking points of auto lobbyists.


I am looking at it from the point of engineering. They can build a better mousetrap but are being held back from doing so due to limitation of fuel. That's it.

 

[69Torino]

Originally Posted by Sayonara_Sonata

ETA: "He was a tech for Hyundai for years"

Vundervall, guten tag might this former tech go into detail about the early Theta II 2.0T, specifically the electronic wastegate acuator, and the effects\characteristics of under\over Voltage range of adjustment departing from the oem recommended 3.9-4V, yah?


The best voltage is 4.2 volts, after 5 key cycles to allow the adaptive values to average out, so that you may achieve a precise reading for voltage. Also the engine must be stone cold to achieve an accurate measurement, as heated metal expands and will alter the voltage value slightly. Kia released a TSB for this adjustment, and 4.2 volts was determined to be the best resting spot for the EWGA.

Quote
=nicholas Just because someone is or was a tech really holds zero for me.....


The reason we need technicians? Engineers need heroes too. This doesn't bother me. I stand on my own merit as a Kia Master Elite Technician.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


Originally Posted by KrisZ
[
From my perspective, you are simply repeating the talking points of auto lobbyists.


I am looking at it from the point of engineering. They can build a better mousetrap but are being held back from doing so due to limitation of fuel. That's it.


Well sure, if it were true and the industry could be trusted.

Back in the 70s fuel crisis and the push for emission control, GM, Ford and Chrysler argued that it was impossible to meet the emission requirements with current technology. Guess what, Honda came in and did it without any futuristic tech, which helped push the dinosaurs along.
There is absolutely no evidence that they are being "held back" by 87 octane fuel. What is holding them back is laziness, complacency and lack of vision, all traits of weak management.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


Originally Posted by KrisZ
[
From my perspective, you are simply repeating the talking points of auto lobbyists.


I am looking at it from the point of engineering. They can build a better mousetrap but are being held back from doing so due to limitation of fuel. That's it.


Well sure, if it were true and the industry could be trusted.

Back in the 70s fuel crisis and the push for emission control, GM, Ford and Chrysler argued that it was impossible to meet the emission requirements with current technology. Guess what, Honda came in and did it without any futuristic tech, which helped push the dinosaurs along.
There is absolutely no evidence that they are being "held back" by 87 octane fuel. What is holding them back is laziness, complacency and lack of vision, all traits of weak management.


I would maybe agree if the Germans were on 87 as well. They aren't, and don't want to be. They have a couple engines on it for this market only because of market pressure.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by AdamZ
I notice a lot of Hyundia/Kia vehicles ping under load, I can hear it when I'm walking down the sidewalk and someone accelerates from a stop. And it is always a vehicle of that make.

The knock sensor is supposed to detect this and adjust timing/boost accordingly. Even my ancient by today's standards 2002 Xterra with the supercharger can modulate it's timing. I never hear ping ever. And I know that sound all too well from other boosted cars I've had lol.

My girlfriend's pings under load and I also noticed others driving by me pinging pulling away.

 

[Sayonara_Sonata]

Originally Posted by 69Torino
Originally Posted by Sayonara_Sonata

ETA: "He was a tech for Hyundai for years"

Vundervall, guten tag might this former tech go into detail about the early Theta II 2.0T, specifically the electronic wastegate acuator, and the effects\characteristics of under\over Voltage range of adjustment departing from the oem recommended 3.9-4V, yah?


The best voltage is 4.2 volts, after 5 key cycles to allow the adaptive values to average out, so that you may achieve a precise reading for voltage. Also the engine must be stone cold to achieve an accurate measurement, as heated metal expands and will alter the voltage value slightly. Kia released a TSB for this adjustment, and 4.2 volts was determined to be the best resting spot for the EWGA.

Quote
=nicholas Just because someone is or was a tech really holds zero for me.....


The reason we need technicians? Engineers need heroes too. This doesn't bother me. I stand on my own merit as a Kia Master Elite Technician.



If the voltage is too low or too high it will trigger limp mode. I presume this is a reaction to the MAP sensor pressure, downstream of turbo, window of at least this much, but not that much under-boost\over-boost.

Let's take the preferred 4.2v for comparison. On the butt dyno one would be hard pressed to tell a difference in 4.2 Vs, 4.1\4.3. 0.1V one way or the other is too close to compare unless your butt is way more sensitive than mine. But, what differing characteristics should one expect at 4.4, 4.5, 4.6 or even 4.7V?

Do higher than 4.2V voltages advance the timing of the closing of the wastegate flap? As I understand the flap only operates with 90* of possible movement.

Changing the voltage also must change the curve of boost timing and pressure along with its correlation to engine rpm.regardless of more or less voltage.

Please dig deeper and tell me more.

 

[69Torino]

Originally Posted by Sayonara_Sonata


Please dig deeper and tell me more.





The PID you are referring to is actually called "adaptation value for lower mechanical stop of electronic wastegate actuator", and while this sounds and appears to have a lot to do with boost pressure, it actually has very little to do with the boost pressure output. This is simply a reference point for the ECU to know when the wastegate is closed. Being that this value is an adaptive value, it is also an average. If the ECU receives an errant value more than twice in a row, a DTC is set. If it continues to send a bad (low or high value) the ECU will set the map to forced limit power and/or forced limit rpm, e.g. "limp mode". This is to protect the engine from an over boost condition, which will cause a lean AFR. Cylinder number 2 is notorious for this condition, as it has a very straight line of sight from the throttle body to the intake port through the inlet manifold, and tends to get the biggest "gulp" of air.

I digress.

This value is more of a protective measure, not a tuning value. You will experience very little via butt dyno by changing the adaptive value of the EWGA. An aftermarket ECU tune "defeats" this value by substituting a standard "good value" (which is faked). I've seen plenty of cars with ECU tunes loaded and had subsequently melted the ring land off cylinder two, or in less catastrophic cases simply melted the electrode off the spark plug. I always know the ECU has a tune on it because the ROM ID is a series of letters and numbers, and on ECU's with a tune loaded it will read XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. The 2016 and up inlet manifold was redesigned to account for better air distribution. Go forth cautiously with tuning, usually the people loading ECU tunes on these cars are not well versed in the dynamics of tuning particular cylinders individually, and end up with a lean condition in cylinder two. The only way to know for sure is through the use of four individual pyrometers on the outlet of the head, to tune each individual cylinder's fuel delivery rate over all loads on a dynamometer.

I hope this clears things up a bit. Cheers!

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by nicholas
Originally Posted by AdamZ
I notice a lot of Hyundia/Kia vehicles ping under load, I can hear it when I'm walking down the sidewalk and someone accelerates from a stop. And it is always a vehicle of that make.

The knock sensor is supposed to detect this and adjust timing/boost accordingly. Even my ancient by today's standards 2002 Xterra with the supercharger can modulate it's timing. I never hear ping ever. And I know that sound all too well from other boosted cars I've had lol.

This is so wildly laughable I can't believe you posted it - - - - you can hear detonation before the ECU can correct timing, on engines designed to use 87, in Ontario.
90% of our gas is Top Tier in this province.

You are not hearing any pinging in these lowly hyundai engines.....such a joke.


So what is the pinging noise that they are making only under load? I think you're starting to be "laughable" lol. I can't speak for the guy you are replying to but I know what pinging sounds like, especially when it only happens under those certain lower rpm, coming under load situations. I guarantee my girlfriend's car is pinging. She only uses 87 octane. Would 91 eliminate eliminate it? I don't know. But it absolutely will prevent it, so you don't know what the f you're talking about. My 305s always had trouble with pinging unless I put 91 in. Change to 91, magically no pinging. The engine was designed to barely get by on 87, just like this GDI Hyundai's.

No pinging Hyundai's lol. Man. What a joke.

 

[69Torino]

These engines aren't designed to run on 87. They are allowed or permitted to. These are facts.

Facts from a technician that has been told multiple times by Kia engineers to "Let us know what you find".

 

[tiger862]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Originally Posted by nicholas
Originally Posted by AdamZ
I notice a lot of Hyundia/Kia vehicles ping under load, I can hear it when I'm walking down the sidewalk and someone accelerates from a stop. And it is always a vehicle of that make.

The knock sensor is supposed to detect this and adjust timing/boost accordingly. Even my ancient by today's standards 2002 Xterra with the supercharger can modulate it's timing. I never hear ping ever. And I know that sound all too well from other boosted cars I've had lol.

This is so wildly laughable I can't believe you posted it - - - - you can hear detonation before the ECU can correct timing, on engines designed to use 87, in Ontario.
90% of our gas is Top Tier in this province.

You are not hearing any pinging in these lowly hyundai engines.....such a joke.


So what is the pinging noise that they are making only under load? I think you're starting to be "laughable" lol. I can't speak for the guy you are replying to but I know what pinging sounds like, especially when it only happens under those certain lower rpm, coming under load situations. I guarantee my girlfriend's car is pinging. She only uses 87 octane. Would 91 eliminate eliminate it? I don't know. But it absolutely will prevent it, so you don't know what the f you're talking about. My 305s always had trouble with pinging unless I put 91 in. Change to 91, magically no pinging. The engine was designed to barely get by on 87, just like this GDI Hyundai's.

No pinging Hyundai's lol. Man. What a joke.

If your cars are pinging then you have a mechanical problem. The 305 had a pinging problem from egr and most pinging is from carbon or incorrect fuel trim which needs further diagnostic test. All vehicles in the family from Chevy to Kia with mileage as low as 13k all the way to 290k no pinging on 87 with 2 being direct injected.

 

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Originally Posted by nicholas
Originally Posted by AdamZ
I notice a lot of Hyundia/Kia vehicles ping under load, I can hear it when I'm walking down the sidewalk and someone accelerates from a stop. And it is always a vehicle of that make.

The knock sensor is supposed to detect this and adjust timing/boost accordingly. Even my ancient by today's standards 2002 Xterra with the supercharger can modulate it's timing. I never hear ping ever. And I know that sound all too well from other boosted cars I've had lol.

This is so wildly laughable I can't believe you posted it - - - - you can hear detonation before the ECU can correct timing, on engines designed to use 87, in Ontario.
90% of our gas is Top Tier in this province.

You are not hearing any pinging in these lowly hyundai engines.....such a joke.


So what is the pinging noise that they are making only under load? I think you're starting to be "laughable" lol. I can't speak for the guy you are replying to but I know what pinging sounds like, especially when it only happens under those certain lower rpm, coming under load situations. I guarantee my girlfriend's car is pinging. She only uses 87 octane. Would 91 eliminate eliminate it? I don't know. But it absolutely will prevent it, so you don't know what the f you're talking about. My 305s always had trouble with pinging unless I put 91 in. Change to 91, magically no pinging. The engine was designed to barely get by on 87, just like this GDI Hyundai's.

No pinging Hyundai's lol. Man. What a joke.

If you are indeed hearing repeated detonation, it is not from the 87.
Mechanical factors are playing out.
Barely get by with 87.....based on what?
87 was chosen because of customer base.

Keep drinking the 91 kool aid buddy.

 

[Newman88]

In my location all we have is 86, 88 91, not even to the minimum requirement lololol

 

[caprice_2nv]

I run 87 in my current 1983 305 because it can get by on it. My girlfriend's Hyundai runs it because Hyundai will be paying for the new engine when hers fails. The pinging in the 305s I had in the past very well might have been because of egr being plugged up, or the fact that they went to 9.5:1 cr in 1985 and added knock sensors (but the knock sensors were only on the US cars not the Canadian ones which had no ecm at all). The Hyundai gdi engines it's likely from carbon buildup.

Whatever the cause, if it's borderline on 87 and it's pinging, 91 will likely stop the pinging unless it's bad. It you disagree, you're inexperienced imo. And yes these engines ping.

Maybe these won't carbon up if you do regular decarbon treatments but you know the average person doesn't do that. My girlfriend occasionally puts a fuel system cleaner in because a mechanic told her in the past about carbon buildup on cars like hers. It didn't keep it from pinging after 60k miles.

I'm not saying they weren't designed to run fine on 87 when new. I'm saying that they don't like it when they get some miles on. I don't care if you disagree. I will never agree with your opinion on this one. It's fine to have your opinion, but careful with telling us how wrong we are when you clearly aren't an expert on it.

 

[caprice_2nv]

I run 87 in my current 1983 305 because it can get by on it. My girlfriend's Hyundai runs it because Hyundai will be paying for the new engine when hers fails. The pinging in the 305s I had in the past very well might have been because of egr being plugged up, or the fact that they went to 9.5:1 cr in 1985 and added knock sensors (but the knock sensors were only on the US cars not the Canadian ones which had no ecm at all). The Hyundai gdi engines it's likely from carbon buildup.

Whatever the cause, if it's borderline on 87 and it's pinging, 91 will likely stop the pinging unless it's bad. It you disagree, you're inexperienced imo. And yes these engines ping.

Maybe these won't carbon up if you do regular decarbon treatments but you know the average person doesn't do that. My girlfriend occasionally puts a fuel system cleaner in because a mechanic told her in the past about carbon buildup on cars like hers. It didn't keep it from pinging after 60k miles.

I'm not saying they weren't designed to run fine on 87 when new. I'm saying that they don't like it when they get some miles on. I don't care if you disagree. I will never agree with your opinion on this one. It's fine to have your opinion, but careful with telling us how wrong we are when you clearly aren't an expert on it Buddy.

 

[tiger862]

 

[69Torino]

Just a random conversation point (as if this thread needs one)...

My 2003 Mercury Marauder has a 10.1:1 compression ratio and is clearly marked with a sticker on the fuel filler door "premium fuel only", as well as warnings in the owner's manual that performance will be greatly reduced when fuel with less than 91 octane
(R+M/2 method) is used.

A 2011 Kia Optima with a 2.4 has a compression ratio of 11.3:1, and is ALLOWED to run 87 octane fuel.

The Kia has higher compression, and makes more horsepower per liter, yet you don't hear about many stock 4.6 DOHC Ford engines eating themselves. I realize the Ford is not DI, no need to point that out. Just a comparison point between a mere 8 years of "technological advancement".

Direct injection is better suited to Diesel engines. This is my opinion.

As with many things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[Doublehaul]

Originally Posted by 69Torino
Just a random conversation point (as if this thread needs one)...

My 2003 Mercury Marauder has a 10.1:1 compression ratio and is clearly marked with a sticker on the fuel filler door "premium fuel only", as well as warnings in the owner's manual that performance will be greatly reduced when fuel with less than 91 octane
(R+M/2 method) is used.

A 2011 Kia Optima with a 2.4 has a compression ratio of 11.3:1, and is ALLOWED to run 87 octane fuel.

The Kia has higher compression, and makes more horsepower per liter, yet you don't hear about many stock 4.6 DOHC Ford engines eating themselves. I realize the Ford is not DI, no need to point that out. Just a comparison point between a mere 8 years of "technological advancement".

Direct injection is better suited to Diesel engines. This is my opinion.

As with many things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


Big difference...your not taking into account is the fuel mapping ability of the newer car. The marauder is a dinosaur in comparison. My last built forced induction small block had to run a mix of race fuel and pump gas.

It's a different world now.


The marauder is sweet by the way and I also hate direct injection

 

[69Torino]

Thank you. I really love the thing. I do realize the differences in processor speed and ability, in regards to fuel mapping and spark curve. Just an interesting comparison. We have come a long way in a decade, albeit with growing pains. The most interesting thing to me is that a basic commuter Kia Optima makes more power per liter than what was considered a pretty hot car in 2003. Though this technology has its complications.