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Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: BeerCan] #5284409 12/03/19 08:07 PM
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P10crew Offline
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I can tell you that in power substations we went AGM then valve regulated and now we are going full steam to get all of those out of our system and right back to flooded. These batteries are 20 grand a pop and nothing lasts like a flooded lead acid battery plant.

As far as LI .... I love them for my battery tools but when you read about what the mining of the lithium is doing i really wonder if we are not screwing up there too. I’m happy with flooded automotive batteries and with the service they have provided me.

Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: Snagglefoot] #5284523 12/03/19 10:56 PM
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Dave9 Offline
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Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
$8 x 200,000,000 cars = $1.6 billion dollars. Manufacturers would scramble to lose 50 lbs of weight on a car.



Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

The manufacturer doesn't get that savings at all, on the contrary it costs the manufacturer more to try to eek out a slight fuel economy savings, and that cost is passed on to the consumer and only rationalized as value if two things are true.

1) The consumer puts and irresponsible # of miles on a year (if they are truly concerned about economy).

2) The consumer gets rid of the vehicle before the higher complexity results in higher and more frequent repair bills, yet that's just passing the buck even if the original buyer does that and gets lucky, and that vehicle is still out there, as a burden to someone else and will result in more landfill waste sooner due to the higher repair costs, then yet another new vehicle has to be manufactured to replace it, at even greater cost to both the consumer and the environment.

No, manufacturers do not scramble to lose 50 lbs of weight no matter the detriment. You have no idea at all what you are talking about.

On the contrary, the primary customer concern these days is cost of ownership and nobody wants to pay hundreds of dollars (literally, it is the reality of what most repairs are caused by) because some idiot wanted to use a flimsy light material to shave a quarter of an ounce off the vehicle weight.

I don't even understand how you can be off of reality this much. How can you possibly translate customer fuel savings into manufacturer costs?

Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: BeerCan] #5284583 12/04/19 03:14 AM
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Snagglefoot Offline
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Dave. Perhaps we should discuss this over a beer. In the past, manufacturers have been under pressure to achieve better gas mileage. Not sure if that will continue, however, if it does, the manufacturers will be very interested in losing 1% of vehicle weight to achieve a small bump in gas mileage.I demonstrated the two hundred million multiplier to show the potential savings. Certainly, the battery cost will have to come down, but let’s check back in five years. BeerCan pointed out he has a lithium ion car battery in a performance vehicle. Let’s see if this extends to other vehicles in the next 5 years. By the way, I’m guessing you feel pretty strongly about lead acid batteries, so I’m going to check out of this thread. Goodbye Dave.

Last edited by Snagglefoot; 12/04/19 03:27 AM.

If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: Dave9] #5284898 12/04/19 12:09 PM
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Anduril Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
$8 x 200,000,000 cars = $1.6 billion dollars. Manufacturers would scramble to lose 50 lbs of weight on a car.



Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

The manufacturer doesn't get that savings at all, on the contrary it costs the manufacturer more to try to eek out a slight fuel economy savings, and that cost is passed on to the consumer and only rationalized as value if two things are true.

1) The consumer puts and irresponsible # of miles on a year (if they are truly concerned about economy).

2) The consumer gets rid of the vehicle before the higher complexity results in higher and more frequent repair bills, yet that's just passing the buck even if the original buyer does that and gets lucky, and that vehicle is still out there, as a burden to someone else and will result in more landfill waste sooner due to the higher repair costs, then yet another new vehicle has to be manufactured to replace it, at even greater cost to both the consumer and the environment.

No, manufacturers do not scramble to lose 50 lbs of weight no matter the detriment. You have no idea at all what you are talking about.

On the contrary, the primary customer concern these days is cost of ownership and nobody wants to pay hundreds of dollars (literally, it is the reality of what most repairs are caused by) because some idiot wanted to use a flimsy light material to shave a quarter of an ounce off the vehicle weight.

I don't even understand how you can be off of reality this much. How can you possibly translate customer fuel savings into manufacturer costs?

Fuel economy is not about the consumer. It is about CAFE numbers, which is a financial incentive for the manufacturer.


2015 Nissan Versa Note 1.6/5MT
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Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: BeerCan] #5285101 12/04/19 03:35 PM
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meep Offline
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Anyone ever watched a lithium battery go into thermal runaway? it's ugly. I think it says a lot that the big names in hybrid and BEVs have had such a statistically non-existent issue with traction battery Car B Ques. I mean really - I remember plenty of auto flambé from various fuel system failures in the 70s through 90s, yet with all of our eyes on BEV tech, the entire nation knows when a single Tesla lights it up, and there just aren't that many instances I know of. BUT, Li batteries are unforgiving when mistreated - and increasing scale of use will be interesting to watch.

While I was offered a Li option by a co-worker, our CRV just got a lead acid agm.


2018 F150
2015 crv (wifey!)
Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: meep] #5285103 12/04/19 03:38 PM
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bbhero Online Content
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Very good points ^^^^

And I agree with you about getting a AGM battery for your vehicle...


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: P10crew] #5285106 12/04/19 03:39 PM
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Impatient Offline
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Originally Posted by P10crew
I can tell you that in power substations we went AGM then valve regulated and now we are going full steam to get all of those out of our system and right back to flooded. These batteries are 20 grand a pop and nothing lasts like a flooded lead acid battery plant.

As far as LI .... I love them for my battery tools but when you read about what the mining of the lithium is doing i really wonder if we are not screwing up there too. I’m happy with flooded automotive batteries and with the service they have provided me.


I’m interested in this discussion, because as I stated, I need off-grid power while camping (boondocking)...NOT at an electrified camping ground / RV park. So I am coming at this from a “deep cycle” perspective.

I’ve heard the arguments for FLA with vent caps, and where the owner periodically checks specific gravity and electrolyte level, visually check for sulfation, and perhaps can even “boost” the electrolyte. This is not available in the other technologies. I believe there are multiple advantages besides price.

I’ve heard the arguments that certain Gel-cell batteries are great for deep cycle, better than most AGM.

I’ve heard (and invested in) the arguments that certain AGM’s are more temperature-tolerant than Gel’s. Both Gel’s and AGM’s can be oriented in multiple ways (FLA’s need to be upright only). One problem is many so-called “deep-cycle” batteries are not really optimized for true RV house battery usage. One brand, LifeLine (and probably its cousin the SunXTender) appears better optimized, but their price reflects their uniqueness, perceived or actual. (Good for them, I guess, and I may be a future customer).

Most charge accessories are compatible with these technologies (meaning solar charge controllers and DC-to-DC chargers which work off alternators, as well as AC-to-DC chargers). The better ones have different voltage settings for the “smart charging”. In other words, the charge profile can be tailored to the battery type. I’m not sure all charge controllers are compatible with lithium, but am all ears, although some controllers (unfortunately, not mine) are fully programmable, so could be adaptable.

Lithium’s have weight advantage, and supposedly can better withstand deep discharge, allegedly resulting in longer lifespans. There are low temperature concerns, though most “packaged lithium offerings are built around clusters of individual cells, along with some BMS (battery monitor system) and possibly some “warming” circuitry (which runs off the batteries, eventually depleting them???)

There is also a carbon foam technology which I think is a version of AGM, with maybe only 1 manufacturer.

So, if anyone has better Lithium information, especially compatibility between charge systems and lithium batteries, and or evidence of better price parity, I am all ears. If folks have preferences for particular brands, also intereste, but please elaborate why.

Also, if anything I said is wrong, or questionable, call me out, I’m trying to learn about this stuff myself.

OK, I guess I just hijacked this thread. Sorry. Is there another thread I should be viewing instead?

Last edited by Impatient; 12/04/19 03:43 PM.

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Re: I think the era of the wet cell is going to be over soon [Re: Impatient] #5285113 12/04/19 03:48 PM
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bbhero Online Content
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Very good post man ^^^^

If it were me... For the price of eggs....

I would go with a thin plate pure lead aka TPPL AGM X-2 battery made by Northstar... Prices around $300 per battery but are truly made for deep cycling... If properly maintained can give 700-1000+ deep cycles... Depth of discharge down to 30-50 percent and charged properly these batteries can actually do this... A member on here has done exactly this with a X-2 battery made by Northstar.

Last edited by bbhero; 12/04/19 03:48 PM.

Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
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