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Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: Ignatius] #5283447 12/02/19 09:23 PM
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69Torino Offline
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by MichaelRS

And why would anybody want to run their oil or their filter to the very last mile of its useful life? To save less than 80 bucks a year on an oil change or two?


Here are the reasons that I believe are why people do this:

1. Bragging rights, it means a lot on the internet.
2. They care too much about what other people think.
3. They are brutally cheap and think that they must get every penny out of their investment in a $10 oil filter.

I would happily run a Fram Ultra for 6000 miles on my Subaru and swap it out and think nothing of it. $10 is not a big deal for me, for some people a $30,000 vehicle is not a big deal but a $10 oil filter is something you would think that they would want to be clutching on to when they die and would write it into their will so it could be buried with them unabled to be pried out of their cold, dead hands.



Though slightly emotionally stated, I identify with this position. I feel it is silly to run a $5, $10, or $15 DISPOSABLE item into the ground to save a couple pennies per day. Oil filters are disposable, and recyclable for that matter. Engines however, for the vast majority of us, are not disposable.

Every single material in an oil filter is recyclable, and though it still costs certain resources to do so, if your conviction is waste management and conservation, I would imagine you likely go to the lengths necessary to recycle your oil and filter properly.

I’m betting you simply heave your spent oil filters into the nearest waste bin though, Oro_O. I may be wrong, I’m likely not.

I don’t interpret the above post as ignorant, by definition. Nor snobbish or obnoxious, simply an opinion regarding the true economics regarding a consumable product.

I personally change oil and filters before most would as well, be it 5k in the wife’s car, 3k in my daily driver XTerra, or once a year in the Marauder, usually with less than 1500 miles. And I use nice, higher than average priced filters. And my engines look like this at 235k.

0CB19F80-EA19-48D0-AB9F-57470841F525.jpeg
Last edited by 69Torino; 12/02/19 09:27 PM.

1969 Ford Torino GT 390 Auto
2003 Mercury Marauder
1992 Mercury Capri Convertible
2000 Nissan Xterra
2008 Hyundai Santa Fe
1947 Ford 2N
1978 Honda XL75
Plus Other Stuff...
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5283457 12/02/19 09:39 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Maybe my eyes are bad or deceiving me... But those are the best looking cam lobes I have seen yet... They look extremely good.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: bbhero] #5283462 12/02/19 09:45 PM
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69Torino Offline
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Maybe my eyes are bad or deceiving me... But those are the best looking cam lobes I have seen yet... They look extremely good.

Thank you. They are in fact nearly perfect. And my wife tows a horse trailer with this thing.

C3C2ECBD-55D0-44A1-81AA-2BDFEB9CF822.jpeg

1969 Ford Torino GT 390 Auto
2003 Mercury Marauder
1992 Mercury Capri Convertible
2000 Nissan Xterra
2008 Hyundai Santa Fe
1947 Ford 2N
1978 Honda XL75
Plus Other Stuff...
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283522 12/02/19 10:58 PM
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Nice job, 69Torino!


Somewhere between Alaska and Wisconsin...
2006 Silverado LT Crew Cab 4WD & 2013 Equinox AWD
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5283550 12/02/19 11:31 PM
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I changed the oil (Schaeffers) and filter (Fram Ultra) in the Ford Escape early simply because I forgot to write the mileage down 😄 Point being is I don't personally care how much I spend on oil and filter and how early I decide to change them out.

I'll always change my oil and filter @ 5000 miles regardless of how long the oil filter/oil are rated for.


Schaeffers Oils

2015 Ford Escape
1987 Ford Mustang - Vortech Supercharged 😎
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5283558 12/02/19 11:50 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Yeah man that is really impressive... Like really impressive. Best cams I have seen thus far.

I wish I could see my cams in my VQ motor... At 290k miles plus though that car of mine still runs really good... And no real leaks either.

Last edited by bbhero; 12/02/19 11:50 PM.

Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: bbhero] #5283570 12/03/19 12:23 AM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by bbhero
I wish I could see my cams in my VQ motor... At 290k miles plus though that car of mine still runs really good... And no real leaks either.


Should be able to see a few cam lobes through the oil fill cap hole with a good flashlight.

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283616 12/03/19 04:54 AM
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dlundblad Offline
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It’s a good filter, but it sounds like you (as well as many many here) would be just fine with an Extra Guard.

My only disclaimer is that yes, the Ultra becomes cheaper if you run it 3-4x (it’s rated for 20k now?) and just change your oil.. if you’re into that sort of thing.

Last edited by dlundblad; 12/03/19 04:55 AM.

03 Jeep WJ 4.0 202k Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 195k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chvy Blazer 4.3 158k M1 EP 10w30 Supertech ST3980

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5283639 12/03/19 06:00 AM
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dnewton3 Offline
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Originally Posted by 69Torino
... I personally change oil and filters before most would as well, be it 5k in the wife’s car, 3k in my daily driver XTerra, or once a year in the Marauder, usually with less than 1500 miles. And I use nice, higher than average priced filters. And my engines look like this at 235k.

There are generally two topics we concern ourselves with in regard to lubes; wear control and cleanliness ...

Wear rates will be a tad higher at the front end of an OCI. They will actually go lower as the OCI matures even out to 15k miles; proven in both the Ford/Conoco SAE study (2007-01-4133) and the reams of my UOA database (16,000 UOAs and still going). Shorter OCIs do not, in any manner, in any field data, make for less wear. So let's take the wear topic off the table.

We turn to cleanliness. As long as the oil add-pack is still strong, the anti-agglomerates and dispersants and detergents will all keep the engine clean. Referencing your internal engine valve-train photo; that looks quite nice. But I had a value-train that looked just as good around 200k miles in our old Villager, using only dino oils and OCIs at 10k miles. Sure, I had some light varnish under the value cover, but there was zero sludge and my visual wear indicators were as good as yours. Shorter OCIs do not assure a lack of sludge any more than longer ones assure sludge. Engine cleanliness is not only a factor of the OCI duration; they are also a factor of the add-pack, the oil flow in the engine, the oil temps in the engine, etc. Some of the Toyota engines back a while ago had terrible sludge issues, even with 5k mile OCIs. Other engines can easily run 2x that distance, and not have any sludge issues, even on lowly dino oil and "normal" filters. (I know, because I have visual proof in my 1995 Villager which had 240k miles on it when we got rid of it, and our 2005 Grand Marquis that has 270k miles on it, and still is in use after being sold to an acquaintance.)

Here's how people look at cleanliness, and then I'll discuss how it actually happens. Your engine, any engine, contributes contamination at some prescribed rate that is unique to it's design, and individual manufacture. Generally, regardless of what products you use, and how you drive in a normal manner, the "contamination rate" does not change much. So, as long as your products selected have the capacity to deal with the contamination relative to the OCI, the outcome is essentially the same.

I like to use analogies to illuminate my point, so here goes ...
Consider an elderly couple; grandparents. They have a cleaning service come into their home once a week to dust, mop, do laundry, etc. Once a week is sufficient to sustain a "clean" home. Now, if you have the maids come 3x a week, it's not going to change the rate of contamination; the amount of dirt, dust, debris, dirty dishes, dirty clothes all stays the same. If once a week is enough to sustain a healthy home, then cleaning it more frequently does NOT improve the living standards in a tangible manner. But what happens if the grandkids come over for a weekend? Now the rate of "dirt" start to increase. Kids produce more dirty dishes, more laundry, drag in more mud, etc. Now's the time that "more" cleaning would be beneficial; you can make a reasonable argument for a need for "more" cleaning based on the uptick in contamination rate.

So it goes for engines. They produce and ingest contamination at a fairly consistent rate. Adding "more" of something (either super duper filters, or high-priced lubes) does not really "clean" more. As long as the basic products have the capacity to "clean", adding more capacity goes unused UNLESS the rate of contamination changes. Here is an example with fictitious numbers for illustration:
If your engine produces/ingests 2 grams of contamination ( combined soot/insolubles/silica) for every 1k miles it drives, then you want a lube and filter than can "hold" that contamination in suspension in the oil, and trapped in the filter (a combination thereof). If your oil has the capacity to hold 10 grams of small contamination, and the filter can hold 10 grams of large particles, then your total holding capacity is 20 grams. You should be able to safely drive 10k miles easily. If you change oil at 5k miles, you're not "cleaning" the engine any better; you're just wasting product capacity.


My point is that most folks do NOT understand about wear, or cleanliness, in relation to engines/trannies/diffs. They have a distorted view that is not supported by factual reality. The "more is always better" mentality is a flawed one.

To be fair, there is always going to be a point where any product fails. Use any oil and filter for too long, and you'll get more wear and more sludge. But that tipping point is typically FAR, FAR further than most people think.

Changing oil and filters frequently has never proven to reduce wear or reduce sludge, as long as the "safe" level of condemnation is understood.

Last edited by dnewton3; 12/03/19 06:16 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283650 12/03/19 06:24 AM
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I am blessed to have cars that are nice to oil, a Hyundai Lambda, (non GDI), a Ford 4.6 DOHC, and a Mazda 1.6 in our ‘92 Capri. Just sold our Freestyle with 308k on it, the Duratec also an engine that doesn’t slaughter oil. The XTerrra I just purchased I am leery of, due to the small oil capacity and higher oil temps. I have had the valve covers off to replace gaskets and regretfully did not take pictures. At 134k it looks like it has twice the miles as it should. It’s stained with varnish, not sludged, but still not as visually attractive as my other engines. When I bought the XTerra, the owner provided me with years of service records, and it had gotten Valvoline Maxlife every 3k-3.5k for many years at the Big O Tire shop in town.

So I do understand that some engines are simply easy on oil and some have a tendency to destroy it quickly. I worked on a lot of 2.7 V6’s at Chrysler. What a nightmare.


1969 Ford Torino GT 390 Auto
2003 Mercury Marauder
1992 Mercury Capri Convertible
2000 Nissan Xterra
2008 Hyundai Santa Fe
1947 Ford 2N
1978 Honda XL75
Plus Other Stuff...
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283779 12/03/19 09:16 AM
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Is there not a middle ground on the Fram Ultras?

I change my oil at 5000-5500 using Chevron Texaco Pro DS grpIII syn, because Hyundai (GDI/Connecting Rods Spinning/Engine seizures, etc.).

But I leave the filter on if it's got only 5000-5500 on it and go another OCI. I mean if the filter is rated for 20,000 then 10,000 should be a breeze right? The engine is dead silent on startups, which leads me to think the ADBV is still working. Hyundai cars are notorious for making a lot of start up noises if the engine doesn't like the filter for whatever reason.

I'm debating in my head going three OCI on the filter this time. It sure is nice not to have to deal with changing it on my back on the garage floor. A expensive UOA with particle counts for each OCI would be telling, but I don't particularly feel like paying for one. Sometimes, life is easier if you just drive and don't think about it. Engine is quiet, runs strong, gets good mileage---->no problem.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 5w & 10w30 seasonal, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Dealership Castrol 0w20, Mazda filter.
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: Brons2] #5283893 12/03/19 11:14 AM
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Thank you all once again, lots of food for thought here.
The reason I don't do expensive, for me, tests or experiment with this that or the other thing is that I can't afford it as I'm on a fixed income. Another reason why I'm driving around in a 17 year old car with just over 200,000 on it.

Fortunately external factors like weather are rather easy on a car here in Orange County, California. So I mostly have to turn my attention to internal factors.
That's why I keep up the fluid service on a lot of things that most people forget other than oil, such as coolant and transmission and brake.

Anyway, because of the lack of disposable income, that is why I have to come to forums like this and rely on people that have done or research and or have a variety of practical experience in the area to pass on their information to help me make better decisions in this area.

Not wanting to have to pay for repairs is another reason why I don't want to risk extending out out my OICs any more than is prudent for this year, make and model of car. Of course I know there is a point of diminishing returns, such as no point in changing the oil and filter every thousand miles or some nonsense like that, but I just seek the happy medium that is best for my car and situation.

And one of the conclusions I've reached, based on the information here, tells me to be that if I'm using a royal purple filter, I can just concentrate on changing only the oil every four or five thousand miles and change the filter every other change period OR drop down to a lesser quality filter and continue to change both.

But the question I have there is, if I change the filter every other oil change, aren't I left with a bunch of dirty oil in the filter the second time around and starting off my oil change with oil dirtier than it has to be? Or is that amount so little that it makes no difference?


2002 Toyota Sienna
178k As of May 2017
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5284082 12/03/19 02:56 PM
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Ultra appears great with all I see and read.
I worry a tiny piece of the wire backing could break off and go to the engine.
I guess it would be .00000001% chance...........or hope it's that low

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5284148 12/03/19 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelRS
But the question I have there is, if I change the filter every other oil change, aren't I left with a bunch of dirty oil in the filter the second time around and starting off my oil change with oil dirtier than it has to be? Or is that amount so little that it makes no difference?


Honda has been doing the filter change every two OCIs for a very long time. The amount of left over oil isn't going to hurt anything if you're doing regular on-time OCIs. And if your using an efficient filter then the left over oil should be pretty clean to start with.

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5284524 12/03/19 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 69Torino
I am blessed to have cars that are nice to oil, a Hyundai Lambda, (non GDI), a Ford 4.6 DOHC, and a Mazda 1.6 in our ‘92 Capri. Just sold our Freestyle with 308k on it, the Duratec also an engine that doesn’t slaughter oil. The XTerrra I just purchased I am leery of, due to the small oil capacity and higher oil temps. I have had the valve covers off to replace gaskets and regretfully did not take pictures. At 134k it looks like it has twice the miles as it should. It’s stained with varnish, not sludged, but still not as visually attractive as my other engines. When I bought the XTerra, the owner provided me with years of service records, and it had gotten Valvoline Maxlife every 3k-3.5k for many years at the Big O Tire shop in town.

So I do understand that some engines are simply easy on oil and some have a tendency to destroy it quickly. I worked on a lot of 2.7 V6’s at Chrysler. What a nightmare.


I'm curious as to what oil and filter you're using in your Hyundai. Is this the 3.5L?


2008 KIA Sportage
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