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deep fake concerns - a question to you all #5282605 12/02/19 07:13 AM
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dnewton3 Offline OP
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I think we're nearing a tipping point of where our real world is going to become indistinguishable from make believe ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/the-weekly/deepfake-joe-rogan.html


PLEASE - NOTE - PLEASE
Do not make this about politics. I get it; certainly that is a risk embedded in the topic. But it does not stop at politics. Deep fake tech will eventually lead to credit fraud escalation, purporting crimes onto others directly or indirectly, swatting issues, testimonial statements, etc.

I'm middle-aged. I never grew up with this threat, but it will affect the later stages of my life. And my kids generation (in their 20s) are going to have to solve it. In fact, they are the generation that is creating it. My generation didn't create tech fraud; it wasn't a thing when I was young.

IMO (strictly my opinion) this is a case of unbridled ambition blinding youth from seeing the consequences of their actions. 40 years ago, if I did something impetuous and stupid, it only hurt myself. Now, we as a world society are on the cusp of creating a condition that cannot ever be undone. Once we can "deep fake" with high accuracy, there's no limit to what unscrupulous persons, companies, and governments will do. It has implications from personal relationships in school as adolescents all the way up to geo-wars. Kids already kill themselves at the hands of bullies on FaceBook. Soon we'll be able to make people into things they are not; make them appear to say things they didn't. Not far from now, we'll be able to meld make-believe into our reality with such convincing efforts that we'll no longer be able to discern one from the other.

Sure, we could delay this for a short while with biometric controls. But for biometric tech to work as a source of identity assurance, it has to be cataloged somewhere as a repository for ID confirmation each time a credential is sought to be verified. And how long do we think it will be until that catalog is hacked? How long until the key to the lock is stolen?

In short, IMO, we're screwed, because as a species we cannot control ourselves from leaping before we look. The question of "Can we do this?" get answered way before "Should we do this?"

Here's my question:
What, if anything, can be done to protect ourselves? There's no way to stop this deep fake tech; that is undeniable. So presuming it does happen, what do we do to counter this, if anything exists at all???



What I want to hear about is your well-reasoned ideas or inputs as to what might protect us from our own stupidity? What counter-points can technology make that would keep us safe, if any?

Last edited by dnewton3; 12/02/19 07:24 AM.

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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282613 12/02/19 07:28 AM
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jeepman3071 Offline
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The issue really came about when corporations discovered personal data could be used as a commodity. Even though I get why they do it, and privacy is a long forgotten thing of the past, these giant breaches are out of control. I've seen people's lives significantly impacted by their data getting into the wrong hands, while these corporations who mine and sell the data seem to get off the hook with no consequences. Lives have been ruined and even after many lawsuits it boils down to the "not much we can do, oh well" mentality.

Meanwhile, I work for a technology company and security has to be our #1 priority. We deal with a lot of school systems and student personal data, and we would absolutely be held accountable if something happened.

From dealing with friends/family who have had their data stolen/compromised, the reality is that we are at the hands of large corporations who do not have our interests in mind, and see us only as a data point.

There are ways to minimize risks, but even those don't totally eliminate it. Don't use a debit card. A debit card is a direct line to your bank account, that information in the wrong hands can drain your account faster than you can blink. A credit card at least acts as a safety net before you pay the bill and money leaves the account. I try to steer clear of social media when I can, or only provide minimal information. I don't give my phone number if it isn't needed. Does it help? Who knows, but it does minimize risk somewhat, as many out there look for easy targets.


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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282617 12/02/19 07:31 AM
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Donald Offline
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I think people should go back to getting news from authentic news sources like newspapers. Whatever your flavor of "opinion" (liberal or conservative) people should be able to find a source of news that is factual and clearly states what is news and what is opinion. Possibly pay for the news as in buying a paper or a digital subscription. The journalists are just like us and need a paycheck.


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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282620 12/02/19 07:33 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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No 1 Rule of the Internet: Assume everything is fake/inaccurate/ lacks context.
No 2 Rule of the Internet: Validate the source material. If unsuccessful see No 1.


This is a big problem with older generations because they lack experience determining true/fake news on the internet and their abilities have declined with age. This age related decline is why the elderly become easy prey.

The big problem is that people by-in-large are intellectually lazy and do not realize that they suffer from confirmation bias.

Last edited by BMWTurboDzl; 12/02/19 07:35 AM.

“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282626 12/02/19 07:41 AM
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Fawteen Offline
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Here's my question:
What, if anything, can be done to protect ourselves? There's no way to stop this deep fake tech; that is undeniable. So presuming it does happen, what do we do to counter this, if anything exists at all???



What I want to hear about is your well-reasoned ideas or inputs as to what might protect us from our own stupidity? What counter-points can technology make that would keep us safe, if any?


The biggest issue I see (near term) is the ability to manipulate video to deceive. That's already being done via simple modifications and edits, but this just adds another layer to it. While Google and fakebook might be claiming that they're working on detection methods, they're also working on developing similar "deepfake" technology on their own (Google duplex for example). I trust Google and fakebook about as far as I can throw one of their datacenters.

In my opinion, the very best way to protect against it is to approach everything you see online with a healthy dose of skepticism. If you see a news article that piques your interest, verify it with other reputable news sources and make sure you understand the context as well as the words. And don't rely solely on something like fakebook for "news"; just because it is on the Internet doesn't mean that it is true.

Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: BMWTurboDzl] #5282628 12/02/19 07:42 AM
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Mad_Hatter Offline
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
No 1 Rule of the Internet: Assume everything is fake/inaccurate/ lacks context.
No 2 Rule of the Internet: Validate the source material. If unsuccessful see No 1.


This is a big problem with older generations because they lack experience determining true/fake news on the internet and their abilities have declined with age. This age related decline is why the elderly become easy prey.

The big problem is that people by-in-large are intellectually lazy and do not realize that they suffer from confirmation bias.

This is true..i get/see (on FB/Twitter/Instagram) a lot of fake crap from people my age and older (50+) than I do from younger family members. Younger people seem to be better at deciding fact from fiction and more inclined to vet or fact check something. Older folks, in my experience, seem to think just because it's on FB it must be true.

The deep fake thing I believe goes hand in hand with the problems AI and social media present. Social media is the platform serving up these deep fakes and AI (algorithms tailoring our online experiences). The solution is beyond my pay grade.

Last edited by Mad_Hatter; 12/02/19 07:43 AM.
Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282629 12/02/19 07:42 AM
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JeffKeryk Online Content
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There are 2 high level components to solution.
1 - Education. With education, you are better prepared to question what is presented to you. Even to question your deeply held beliefs. I suggest reading "Educated" by Tara Westover.

2 - Greed. Science, in this case Computer Science, can be used for gooad as well as bad.

Finally, this is nothing new; just on a digital scale.


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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282631 12/02/19 07:44 AM
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Snagglefoot Online Content
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There are always three versions of news, and there always was.This guy’s story.That guy’s story. And the truth.


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: JeffKeryk] #5282637 12/02/19 07:50 AM
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Mad_Hatter Offline
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
There are 2 high level components to solution.
1 - Education. With education, you are better prepared to question what is presented to you. Even to question your deeply held beliefs. I suggest reading "Educated" by Tara Westover.

2 - Greed. Science, in this case Computer Science, can be used for gooad as well as bad.

Finally, this is nothing new; just on a digital scale.

I saw a piece on AI featuring this Chinese guy who's considered one of the leading experts/developers on AI (the Chinese are years ahead of us in that dept) and he spoke about some of the dire consequences of AI if/when used for the wrong purposes. The interview was pretty eye opening and alarming.

Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: Donald] #5282639 12/02/19 07:54 AM
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jeepman3071 Offline
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Originally Posted by Donald
I think people should go back to getting news from authentic news sources like newspapers. Whatever your flavor of "opinion" (liberal or conservative) people should be able to find a source of news that is factual and clearly states what is news and what is opinion. Possibly pay for the news as in buying a paper or a digital subscription. The journalists are just like us and need a paycheck.



Newspapers are some of the worst offenders. They are declining in sales, and will publish pretty much anything to get a story. I say this as someone whose family was plastered all over the papers and everything in the articles was 100% lies. They twisted facts in ways we never thought were possible. These are the reasons many do not trust any news sources. Over the past few decades there has been a transition in reporting, from reporting "news" and making people aware of current events, to posting click bait titles and articles in order to get more ad views and revenue.


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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: Snagglefoot] #5282642 12/02/19 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
There are always three versions of news, and there always was.This guy’s story.That guy’s story. And the truth.

Uhm, not so "true"..it used to be that you were entitled to your own opinion but not your own set of facts..but not anymore. We're in an Orwellian post facts era where were told not to believe your "lying eyes and ears". It's called "alternative facts"...or gaslighting.

Last edited by Mad_Hatter; 12/02/19 07:57 AM.
Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: JeffKeryk] #5282643 12/02/19 07:58 AM
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faltic Offline
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Around 50 years ago a book titled "Future Shock" predicted we our down fall would would be brought about buy information overload. Pretty hard to process already. This mybe the final nail in our collective coffin.

https://www.amazon.com/Future-Shock-Alvin-Toffler/dp/0553277375


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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: faltic] #5282662 12/02/19 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by faltic
Around 50 years ago a book titled "Future Shock" predicted we our down fall would would be brought about buy information overload. Pretty hard to process already. This mybe the final nail in our collective coffin.

https://www.amazon.com/Future-Shock-Alvin-Toffler/dp/0553277375

That was a book well ahead of its time. Great read.

Even as a kid growing up my father kept telling us, don’t believe everything you hear or read. That holds true for today as well and even more so imo.


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Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282664 12/02/19 08:20 AM
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I stop watching the news a long time. If I need something just a click away.

Re: deep fake concerns - a question to you all [Re: dnewton3] #5282665 12/02/19 08:21 AM
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Who's to say some of this hasn't already been being used on us as a weapon? Without digging into the verboten side of this, if it's easy to fake people we "think" we know, it's even easier to fool someone with faces they don't see often. Like foreign heads of state, militants, etc etc... now, instead of actually having to run a false flag operation, it can be deep faked to create the appearance of impending attacks, and that is used to rile up the people.

I agree with Don on the newspapers, other than the fact that a handful of elites control about 90% of the newspapers now.... IMO, the more news you watch on TV the more desensitized you'll be, and therefore more susceptible to the manipulations not throwing up a red flag in your mind.

Humans are an analog machine, and while capable of designing fantastic digital machines, are not really capable of deciphering manipulated digital inputs... I try to avoid digital media wherever possible. I agree, the precedent is scary as all get-out...

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