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Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5282469 12/01/19 10:46 PM
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ammolab Offline
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Originally Posted by 69Torino
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by 69Torino
Fram: if you charged a dollar more and made the can out of .020” steel instead of .016”, I’m sure people wouldn’t mind. That goes for you too, Wix.

Are there failures of the Wix and Fram filters due to that?

I wouldn’t call them failures, but I have taken debris to an oil filter off road (farm stuff) and perforated the can. STP filter on an Isuzu Trooper. Lost oil pressure and found a hole in the can. So I use oil filters with thick cans. One of those preventable things, ya know. The last time I changed the oil on the XTerra, the K&N had a dent, and I know that it was perfect when installed, so it took a hit at some point. Had it been a thin can, maybe could have perforated? Who knows. But it didn’t.


My son’s K&N had a factory perforation at one of the spot welds on that bottom nut. Leaked like mad on start up. The can wasn’t thick enough that day!


1998 Jeep Cherokee
2011 BMW R1200R
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L
2016 Chevy SS Sport Sedan
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5282490 12/01/19 11:30 PM
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anndel Offline
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Just changed the oil in our 2014 Toyota Tacoma. After unscrewing the Fram Ultra filter, I noticed a black plastic piece in the oil filter housing blocking one of the oil ports. It appeared to have been mounted on the bypass filter. I took out a brand new Fram Ultra and looked in with a light to see the plastic piece mounted on the bypass filter. Threw on a Toyota OEM filter. Never again with I buy another Fram filter.


1993 Toyota 4x4 p/u, 2.4L 22RE 4 cyl - M1 EP 10W-30, Fram UG Filter
2005 Toyota Avalon XL, 3.5L V6, Amsoil XL 5W-30, Amsoil Filter
2014 Toyota Tacoma 4.0L V6, Amsoil SS 5W-30, Yota OEM Filter
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: ARCOgraphite] #5282491 12/01/19 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite




Royal Puple doesn't make filters, and their passenger car oil is way down in the bottom third of the ratings.


Funny, I know plenty of people that have used Royal Purple including myself with no issues so I'd like to see these so called "ratings" that your referring to and I want solid data.



Schaeffers Oils

2015 Ford Escape
1987 Ford Mustang - Vortech Supercharged 😎
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: CharlieBauer] #5282507 12/02/19 12:04 AM
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CR94 Offline
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Originally Posted by CharlieBauer
Originally Posted by MichaelRS
I'm not interested in getting a great filter that's good up to 7,000 miles because I'm not interested in cutting it that close.
This is the oil filter equivalent of the 3000 mile oil change myth.
Yes, but old superstitions die hard. On an engine in decent condition, the perceived risk of not changing an Ultra before 7k is actually so slight that it's likely no greater than that of accidentally introducing a small clump of stray dirt to a filter outlet side while changing filters.


2011 Toyota Prius now at 108K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: 69Torino] #5282527 12/02/19 01:08 AM
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Oro_O Offline
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Originally Posted by 69Torino

I wouldn’t call them failures, but I have taken debris to an oil filter off road (farm stuff) and perforated the can. STP filter on an Isuzu Trooper. Lost oil pressure and found a hole in the can. So I use oil filters with thick cans. One of those preventable things, ya know.


Then put the GD belly pan back on the Trooper and stop driving around with the filter hanging out in the wind. I have one and there's no way you can get debris to damage the filter unless you are were negligent and didn't put the pan and extension back on after an oil change or other front end service.

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5282586 12/02/19 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelRS
... And why would anybody want to run their oil or their filter to the very last mile of its useful life? To save less than 80 bucks a year on an oil change or two?

... But if you change your oil and filter under 7,000 miles, hopefully UNDER 5.5K in my case, the Fram Ultra seems like a GREAT filter, with ALL the benefits of Royal Purple but without the price.

... I'm not interested in getting a great filter that's good up to 7,000 miles because I'm not interested in cutting it that close. I like a decent filter with a good good buffer in it's service life, but I feel that I've really been wasting my money on the Royal Purple for oil and filter changes under 6k. And being old school I'm uncomfortable just changing the oil but not the filter.


- people whom seek out their best ROI will run their lubes and filters out. And you said it clearly yourself "very last mile of its useful life". The key being "useful". I suspect you're under two distinct misconceptions:
1) there is a linear slope differentiating the performance of wear protection in an OFCI (out to 15k miles max)
2) the useful life of oil and filters means shorter is always better
Neither of these is true.

- It's true the Fram Ultra is a great filter. So are many others. What seems expensive or inexpensive to you will have different valuations to others. However, for your planned OFCI (under 7k miles or less), just about ANY filter will do a decent job.

- Any normal filter has a "buffer" much greater than you seem to give credit for. And that goes for oils, also. I have run "normal" MC and Purloator filters out to 15k miles, using ST dino oil, and got great UOA results. This is true for just about anyone bold enough to actually step out of their bubble and allow the paradigm shift to "wake" them. I routinely run conventional oils out to 10-15k miles, all on the same filters, and never have any issues. This is supported by UOAs, PCs, visual observations under the valve covers, etc.


I am not saying the premium products cannot outperform normal everyday products; they certainly can. It's just that your self-imposed limit of 7k miles or less is WELL within the capability of "normal" products. And, you're not going to see any significant alteration of wear rates or cleanliness by using super-duper products for "normal" exposure limits. You've been wasting your money on the RP filters at 7k miles. But you'll also be wasting money on the Ultra at that OFCI, also.


Why not actually start some experiments and see for yourself, rather than bench racing this Ultra thread to death (as has been done a bazillion times already; a fact you're already noted)?
Why not run some UOAs and PCs with your current products, then change one product at a time, and see how they stack up?
Why not actually do, rather than ask?

I believe you'll be shocked to realize how capable "normal" products are, even further than you give them credit for.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: RazorsEdge] #5282622 12/02/19 07:38 AM
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ARCOgraphite Offline
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Originally Posted by RazorsEdge
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite




Royal Puple doesn't make filters, and their passenger car oil is way down in the bottom third of the ratings.


Funny, I know plenty of people that have used Royal Purple including myself with no issues so I'd like to see these so called "ratings" that your referring to and I want solid data.




I should have said "rankings" and it wasn't done on engine wear data but
"casual" ranking of their API starburst PCMO referencing PQIA and UOA data.

Where it is I forgot. I've Been a member here for well over a decade and read the discussions over the years..

I just know to chuckle and pass this oil by at Walmart or AZ.

UPDATE: I just looked at RP Dexos data on PQIA for 0W20 and they are using new DP that looks competitive with the Top Three

So I moderate my unabashed bashing. Good to see!




PHYSICAL TESTS (click for test details) - a Standard Royal Purple
TBN, mg KOH/g (ASTM D2896) 9.07
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 6.9 to <9.3 8.60
Viscosity @40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 45.27
Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270) 171
Viscosity @-35ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 6,200 Max 5,949
Volatility, mass % loss, 1 hr, @ 250ºC (ASTM D5800) 15 Max -c 10.9
ELEMENTAL ANALYSIS (click for test details) - a, b
Additives
Calcium, ppm 1,203
Magnesium, ppm 847
Phosphorus, ppm 600 to 800 -d 769
Zinc, ppm 831
Molybdenum, ppm 69
Barium, ppm <1
Boron, ppm 235
Silicon, ppm 8
Potassium, ppm <5
Manganese, ppm <1
Titanium, ppm 35
Copper, ppm <1
Sodium, ppm <5
Vanadium, ppm <1
Contaminants
Silver, ppm <1
Aluminum, ppm <1
Chromium, ppm <1
Iron, ppm 2
Nickel, ppm <1
Lead, ppm <1
Antimony, ppm <1
Tin, ppm <1


Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 12/02/19 07:47 AM.

2019 VW Jetta S 6MT OCI#2 7378mi-MOTUL Specific VW508.00+VW Service Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#8 60864mi-Subaru Idemitsu 0W20 + SOA Filter
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283139 12/02/19 04:21 PM
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MichaelRS Offline OP
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Thank you all for your replies. Some nicer than others. Probably should have been more clear in my OP that I was not disparaging anybody they way they want to do anyting. That's why I was asking WHY for this or that.

The major complaint everybody seems to have is too thin housing on the Fram filter. Where that's located in a 2002 Sienna I don't think that would be too much of an issue as far as road debris is concerned. Or at least not in metropolitan areas where you're mostly on the blacktop as I am here in Orange County California

For some reason I actually thought the Fram ultra was over $5 cheaper than the Royal Purple. I recently recently priced it and found that wasn't so. So there's really no advantage for me to get that over the Mobil 1 extended performance, which I've come to like and trust as the filter I like second best after Royal Purple for the price.

Anyway, thank you all for your comments. Even the snarky ones. Even they generally containd some useful information.


2002 Toyota Sienna
178k As of May 2017
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: kschachn] #5283163 12/02/19 04:44 PM
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MichaelRS Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kschachn
And to the OP, yes this is definitely beating a dead horse. It is actually beating a horse that has been dead quite a while and has been subsequently beaten so much there's nothing left to beat. You certainly have drawn some of the usuals out of the woodwork and no doubt will draw out the rest given more time.

Where do you get any kind of connection to 7,000 miles with any filter? Isn't the Fram Ultra designed for much longer OCIs? Isn't any premium filter?

I guess I don't understand your question.


On my 2002 Sienna the manufacturer recommended OCI is 7,500 or standard driving conditions with CONVENTIONAL oil.
However, in hindsight, due to the sludging problems with a number first generation Sienna's, Toyota rolled that back to 5,000 miles.

I've use Castrol 10-30 high-mileage in my car since I got it in 2012 with 136000 miles on it. It now has 207k.
So I was using the 7,000 as a personal point of reference based on my car with conventional oil. Even though I split the difference between conventional and synthetic with high mileage.

And based on the test results I get from Blackstone the TBN in that oil starts to give up the ghost to the point where it mattered somewhere around 5,500. And the rate to which my oil gets dirty they don't think it's worth switching to full synthetic for a longer oci's


2002 Toyota Sienna
178k As of May 2017
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283178 12/02/19 05:00 PM
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f.u is 7.62 with a sub/save from amazon....i understand some don't need or want to go that route, but at that price i don't think it can be beat. if it can please let me know...


19' Honda Crv 1.5T
19' Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi
06' Pontiac/yoda Vibe
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283207 12/02/19 05:28 PM
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Thin cans have always kind’ve freaked me out too,especially when I can smush them with my bare hands. I remember how fragile the yellow Purolator cans were. I like the thicker cans of the oem and Wix filters.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 0W20

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: aquariuscsm] #5283232 12/02/19 06:00 PM
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4WD Online Confused
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M1 and the XP are heavy as tanks - but the filtration is not quite what the XG is - probably not gonna effect when the transmission fails or the front end craters - and the car is junk though, LoL
I have used them all.

Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283338 12/02/19 07:35 PM
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I've always said I would run my wife's xB until the engine blows up or something important rusts off the body. At nearly 16 years old (bought Feb.'05) it doesn't look like either are happening anytime soon! Thanks to regular underbody washes, M1 EP, and Ultra.


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: MichaelRS] #5283342 12/02/19 07:40 PM
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Ignatius Offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelRS

And why would anybody want to run their oil or their filter to the very last mile of its useful life? To save less than 80 bucks a year on an oil change or two?


Here are the reasons that I believe are why people do this:

1. Bragging rights, it means a lot on the internet.
2. They care too much about what other people think.
3. They are brutally cheap and think that they must get every penny out of their investment in a $10 oil filter.

I would happily run a Fram Ultra for 6000 miles on my Subaru and swap it out and think nothing of it. $10 is not a big deal for me, for some people a $30,000 vehicle is not a big deal but a $10 oil filter is something you would think that they would want to be clutching on to when they die and would write it into their will so it could be buried with them unabled to be pried out of their cold, dead hands.


2018 Subaru Outback Limited - 75,000 miles
2018 Subaru Outback Premium - 30,000 miles
2012 Hyundai Accent GLS - 93,000 miles
2005 Dodge Sprinter 3500 - 161,000 miles
Re: Fram Ultra - beating a dead horse. [Re: Ignatius] #5283357 12/02/19 07:51 PM
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Oro_O Offline
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by MichaelRS

And why would anybody want to run their oil or their filter to the very last mile of its useful life? To save less than 80 bucks a year on an oil change or two?


Here are the reasons that I believe are why people do this:

1. Bragging rights, it means a lot on the internet.
2. They care too much about what other people think.
3. They are brutally cheap and think that they must get every penny out of their investment in a $10 oil filter.
.


What an obnoxious and ignorant post.

You could just read the thread above and see other reasons are that tossing it early is a waste, and in some difficult-to-service applications, it save genuine time and money. All laid out and explained, documented for those who care to read the issue and not just snobbishly tar people with a different practice or view point.

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