Fast forward to the 3 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlM0K0Tr8o
This guy claims a heavier oil will cause more wear
- Thread starter Whammo
- Start date
- Status
Thin to flow and thick to protect. Slightly higher hths/VI is good but not a catch all. Buy good oil and change it regularly. Buy better oil for severe applications and change it extra regularly.
Originally Posted by Whammo
Fast forward to the 3 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlM0K0Tr8o
Well, in his defense, he did say "In this case" and "can" not will. He's basically saying using a heavier oil than what the manufacturer recommends can cause more wear to the over head cams if the oil is not flowing efficiently. One can disagree, but I don't think that is controversial statement.
Fast forward to the 3 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlM0K0Tr8o
Well, in his defense, he did say "In this case" and "can" not will. He's basically saying using a heavier oil than what the manufacturer recommends can cause more wear to the over head cams if the oil is not flowing efficiently. One can disagree, but I don't think that is controversial statement.
He is correct about 99% of the time...I enjoy his videos. Keep in mind he's talking to the layman...and in that regard following the manufactures recommendation is never a bad idea
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 7,265
well putting 20w50 in an engine residing in Michigan that calls for 5w30 probably isn't going to do much good, but putting 20w50 in an engine that runs around in the Mohave desert probably would benefit.
No it would provide more viscosity cushion. Which begs the question how hard does a person need to run their engine for it to be a benefit.
Originally Posted by Whammo
Fast forward to the 3 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlM0K0Tr8o
What he actually says is "wear out faster" and while the why's and how's this happens is more nuanced, he's more or less right. (there are extenuating factors to consider like tolerances and temps and how much thicker the oil is blah blah blah)
I give Scotty a lot of crap, like his swaying as if he's drunk, but everything in this vid is solid advice.
Fast forward to the 3 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlM0K0Tr8o
What he actually says is "wear out faster" and while the why's and how's this happens is more nuanced, he's more or less right. (there are extenuating factors to consider like tolerances and temps and how much thicker the oil is blah blah blah)
I give Scotty a lot of crap, like his swaying as if he's drunk, but everything in this vid is solid advice.
Last edited:
As much as I can't stand him, he's actually right about that. Higher HTHS (dynamic viscosity) than the bearing clearances call for can slow oil flow through the bearings as well as increase hydrodynamic friction. Less flow + more friction = more heat. The oil temperature delta through the bearings becomes a lot higher. More stress is placed on the oil pump and drive to pump the higher viscosity. The oil filter experiences a higher pressure delta which can reduce filtration efficiency and make bypass events more common. The higher the viscosity, the greater the amount of air that can become entrained in the oil and the longer it takes to release that entrained air. The higher oil pressure caused by the higher viscosity also increases the capacity for entrained air.
The whole "more cushion" thing is a result of mental gymnastics. Imagine a drag car as a metaphor. A set of 10.5" wide tires is providing excellent traction, no spinning at all, and the car is able to launch off the line at full power without problems. Do you think going to a set of 12" wide tires will provide any additional traction? No. It's already not spinning. The wider tires will just add weight and rolling resistance and slow the car down while benefiting absolutely nothing. Same concept.
The whole "more cushion" thing is a result of mental gymnastics. Imagine a drag car as a metaphor. A set of 10.5" wide tires is providing excellent traction, no spinning at all, and the car is able to launch off the line at full power without problems. Do you think going to a set of 12" wide tires will provide any additional traction? No. It's already not spinning. The wider tires will just add weight and rolling resistance and slow the car down while benefiting absolutely nothing. Same concept.
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
As much as I can't stand him, he's actually right about that. Higher HTHS (dynamic viscosity) than the bearing clearances call for can slow oil flow through the bearings as well as increase hydrodynamic friction. Less flow + more friction = more heat. The oil temperature delta through the bearings becomes a lot higher. More stress is placed on the oil pump and drive to pump the higher viscosity. The oil filter experiences a higher pressure delta which can reduce filtration efficiency and make bypass events more common. The higher the viscosity, the greater the amount of air that can become entrained in the oil and the longer it takes to release that entrained air. The higher oil pressure caused by the higher viscosity also increases the capacity for entrained air.
The whole "more cushion" thing is a result of mental gymnastics. Imagine a drag car as a metaphor. A set of 10.5" wide tires is providing excellent traction, no spinning at all, and the car is able to launch off the line at full power without problems. Do you think going to a set of 12" wide tires will provide any additional traction? No. It's already not spinning. The wider tires will just add weight and rolling resistance and slow the car down while benefiting absolutely nothing. Same concept.
Can't running too thick or too thin of an oil in tight clearances effect the ability to maintain a consistent oil film? Maybe I'm wrong on this but I thought I read once that it has to do with the ideal pressure (not sure I'm using the proper term) in those tight clearances, like bearings and ring to liner, to maintain the MOFT. Plus higher temps in those loc's could lead to thermal breakdown of the lube, no?
As much as I can't stand him, he's actually right about that. Higher HTHS (dynamic viscosity) than the bearing clearances call for can slow oil flow through the bearings as well as increase hydrodynamic friction. Less flow + more friction = more heat. The oil temperature delta through the bearings becomes a lot higher. More stress is placed on the oil pump and drive to pump the higher viscosity. The oil filter experiences a higher pressure delta which can reduce filtration efficiency and make bypass events more common. The higher the viscosity, the greater the amount of air that can become entrained in the oil and the longer it takes to release that entrained air. The higher oil pressure caused by the higher viscosity also increases the capacity for entrained air.
The whole "more cushion" thing is a result of mental gymnastics. Imagine a drag car as a metaphor. A set of 10.5" wide tires is providing excellent traction, no spinning at all, and the car is able to launch off the line at full power without problems. Do you think going to a set of 12" wide tires will provide any additional traction? No. It's already not spinning. The wider tires will just add weight and rolling resistance and slow the car down while benefiting absolutely nothing. Same concept.
Can't running too thick or too thin of an oil in tight clearances effect the ability to maintain a consistent oil film? Maybe I'm wrong on this but I thought I read once that it has to do with the ideal pressure (not sure I'm using the proper term) in those tight clearances, like bearings and ring to liner, to maintain the MOFT. Plus higher temps in those loc's could lead to thermal breakdown of the lube, no?
Define too thick. Using a 5w30 in an engine calling for 5W20 is not going to cause extra wear. Using a 20W50 in it in the dead of winter could pose a problem, and might increase wear. IIIRC doesn't the Hemi used in the Ram call for 5W20 in some applications, and 0W40 in others? Is the engine calling for 0W40 totally different than the one calling for 5W20?
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Define too thick. Using a 5w30 in an engine calling for 5W20 is not going to cause extra wear. Using a 20W50 in it in the dead of winter could pose a problem, and might increase wear. IIIRC doesn't the Hemi used in the Ram call for 5W20 in some applications, and 0W40 in others? Is the engine calling for 0W40 totally different than the one calling for 5W20?
Define?..dunno if there's a one size fits all rule but we do know oil drag is a "thing", and I suppose the tipping point where the oil is "too thick" and actually causes undesirable effects is gonna vary from one engine to the next wouldn't it? (variables about the engine will dictate "too thick", no?)
Define too thick. Using a 5w30 in an engine calling for 5W20 is not going to cause extra wear. Using a 20W50 in it in the dead of winter could pose a problem, and might increase wear. IIIRC doesn't the Hemi used in the Ram call for 5W20 in some applications, and 0W40 in others? Is the engine calling for 0W40 totally different than the one calling for 5W20?
Define?..dunno if there's a one size fits all rule but we do know oil drag is a "thing", and I suppose the tipping point where the oil is "too thick" and actually causes undesirable effects is gonna vary from one engine to the next wouldn't it? (variables about the engine will dictate "too thick", no?)
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Define too thick. Using a 5w30 in an engine calling for 5W20 is not going to cause extra wear. Using a 20W50 in it in the dead of winter could pose a problem, and might increase wear. IIIRC doesn't the Hemi used in the Ram call for 5W20 in some applications, and 0W40 in others? Is the engine calling for 0W40 totally different than the one calling for 5W20?
Define?..dunno if there's a one size fits all rule but we do know oil drag is a "thing", and I suppose the tipping point where the oil is "too thick" and actually causes undesirable effects is gonna vary from one engine to the next wouldn't it? (variables about the engine will dictate "too thick", no?)
I agree, but I don't think going from a 20 grade oil to a 30 grade oil is a tipping point. The Hemi I mentioned is just one example. The Ford Mustang comes to mind as well, when tracking the car comes into play. Now for a commuter 4 cyl eco-box, driven two miles to the train station, moving from a 20 grade to a 50 grade will be another story. Years ago we were given oil choices, pick the grade to match the climate and how the vehicle was used. Many companies moved away from that to a one size fits all mentality, some are now changing that mindset. I think savvy car enthusiasts still realize that one size doesn't fit all, and blanket statements can get you in trouble.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Define too thick. Using a 5w30 in an engine calling for 5W20 is not going to cause extra wear. Using a 20W50 in it in the dead of winter could pose a problem, and might increase wear. IIIRC doesn't the Hemi used in the Ram call for 5W20 in some applications, and 0W40 in others? Is the engine calling for 0W40 totally different than the one calling for 5W20?
Define?..dunno if there's a one size fits all rule but we do know oil drag is a "thing", and I suppose the tipping point where the oil is "too thick" and actually causes undesirable effects is gonna vary from one engine to the next wouldn't it? (variables about the engine will dictate "too thick", no?)
I agree, but I don't think going from a 20 grade oil to a 30 grade oil is a tipping point. The Hemi I mentioned is just one example. The Ford Mustang comes to mind as well, when tracking the car comes into play. Now for a commuter 4 cyl eco-box, driven two miles to the train station, moving from a 20 grade to a 50 grade will be another story. Years ago we were given oil choices, pick the grade to match the climate and how the vehicle was used. Many companies moved away from that to a one size fits all mentality, some are now changing that mindset. I think savvy car enthusiasts still realize that one size doesn't fit all, and blanket statements can get you in trouble.
Most owners manuals will show you what oil wt to use, based on the temperature. Even Harley who recommends 20w50 wt for their motors in everyday use, says to use 10w40 when the temps the bike used in is under 40f. Summer in Arizona is gonna be hotter then summer in Maine, so if you use a heavier oil in AZ, you'll be fine.,,,
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I agree, but I don't think going from a 20 grade oil to a 30 grade oil is a tipping point.
I agree that you can safely go up or down a grade but I think the question of wear gets murkier when you're talking multiple grades. For some engines I'm sure it's simply not an issue.. but does that mean everyone could/should expect the same "no effect" effect, maybe not.
I agree, but I don't think going from a 20 grade oil to a 30 grade oil is a tipping point.
I agree that you can safely go up or down a grade but I think the question of wear gets murkier when you're talking multiple grades. For some engines I'm sure it's simply not an issue.. but does that mean everyone could/should expect the same "no effect" effect, maybe not.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I agree, but I don't think going from a 20 grade oil to a 30 grade oil is a tipping point.
I agree that you can safely go up or down a grade but I think the question of wear gets murkier when you're talking multiple grades. For some engines I'm sure it's simply not an issue.. but does that mean everyone could/should expect the same "no effect" effect, maybe not.
We're on the same page. Unless I was burning oil at an alarming rate, and exhausted the typical fixes in a bottle associated w/o repairs I see no point in bumping up to a 50 grade oil. But for a video that I get paid per click, why not stir the pot............
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I agree, but I don't think going from a 20 grade oil to a 30 grade oil is a tipping point.
I agree that you can safely go up or down a grade but I think the question of wear gets murkier when you're talking multiple grades. For some engines I'm sure it's simply not an issue.. but does that mean everyone could/should expect the same "no effect" effect, maybe not.
We're on the same page. Unless I was burning oil at an alarming rate, and exhausted the typical fixes in a bottle associated w/o repairs I see no point in bumping up to a 50 grade oil. But for a video that I get paid per click, why not stir the pot............
Why do even [censored] cars in america use oil filters with the flat type gasket, but the ones in asia use o ring type that NEVER falls off.
Originally Posted by BigCahuna
Most owners manuals will show you what oil wt to use, based on the temperature. Even Harley who recommends 20w50 wt for their motors in everyday use, says to use 10w40 when the temps the bike used in is under 40f. Summer in Arizona is gonna be hotter then summer in Maine, so if you use a heavier oil in AZ, you'll be fine.,,,
From an Air cooled bikes perspective sure but, for example my Camaro runs essentially the same Engine oil temps if it's 40F or 110F outside.
Most owners manuals will show you what oil wt to use, based on the temperature. Even Harley who recommends 20w50 wt for their motors in everyday use, says to use 10w40 when the temps the bike used in is under 40f. Summer in Arizona is gonna be hotter then summer in Maine, so if you use a heavier oil in AZ, you'll be fine.,,,
From an Air cooled bikes perspective sure but, for example my Camaro runs essentially the same Engine oil temps if it's 40F or 110F outside.
Originally Posted by BigCahuna
Most owners manuals will show you what oil wt to use, based on the temperature. Even Harley who recommends 20w50 wt for their motors in everyday use, says to use 10w40 when the temps the bike used in is under 40f. Summer in Arizona is gonna be hotter then summer in Maine, so if you use a heavier oil in AZ, you'll be fine.,,,
Oil grades, not weights. Sorry, it's a pet peeve.
Most owners manuals will show you what oil wt to use, based on the temperature. Even Harley who recommends 20w50 wt for their motors in everyday use, says to use 10w40 when the temps the bike used in is under 40f. Summer in Arizona is gonna be hotter then summer in Maine, so if you use a heavier oil in AZ, you'll be fine.,,,
Oil grades, not weights. Sorry, it's a pet peeve.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
Originally Posted by alcyon
Why do even [censored] cars in america use oil filters with the flat type gasket, but the ones in asia use o ring type that NEVER falls off.
I wonder that too. My 300ZX and Accord oem filters have that o ring type gasket.
Why do even [censored] cars in america use oil filters with the flat type gasket, but the ones in asia use o ring type that NEVER falls off.
I wonder that too. My 300ZX and Accord oem filters have that o ring type gasket.
- Status
