Extended OCI Issues

[Gebo]

You can see I try keep my cars for the duration. I only use OEM Toyota/Lexus parts and fluids (even brake fluid and batteries). For the majority of their lives (so far) my oils have varied from Amsoil to Redline to Schaeffers etc. Good oils with 5-10K OCI's.

My 4Runner and my '98 LS 400 started leaking oil from valve cover and cam seals and finally has progressed to staining the driveway.

I started listening to AGCO Podcasts and they are staunch proponents of 3K OCI. Here is a copy and paste from their website:

The most common cause of failure with valve cover gaskets is a lack of maintenance. With extended oil changes, we may deplete engine oil additives that help keep valve cover gaskets pliable.
Without this protection, gaskets and seals get hard and may start to leak.


What is your opinion of this statement? Are we being duped by our owner's manual instructions and our focus on oil analysis?

 

[simple_gifts]

Why is the thread called "Extended OCI issues"; call it Old car issues.

Apparently you are looking past the 300K, 22 year old gaskets, 22 year old gasket technology, 1000s of cold hot cycles etc etc etc.

JMO

 

[czbrian]

If anything I think your vehicles prove the extended OCI is ok. At that age and miles, a leaky valve cover isn't really unexpected.

 

[JLTD]

A UOA will tell you when your additives are depleted. Plenty of 3,000 mile oil change vehicles needed head gasket replacement.

The article I expect would relate to diluters or shearing monsters, or people that use dino and forget to change their oil until way past any reasonable interval.

 

[Gebo]

I trust we will all have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

I'm curious at to what you think of the "pink" sentences. Is there any validity to those sentences?

I shouldn't have even listed my cars in the OP. I can't edit it now. Fiddlesticks!

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted by Gebo
You can see I try keep my cars for the duration. I only use OEM Toyota/Lexus parts and fluids (even brake fluid and batteries). For the majority of their lives (so far) my oils have varied from Amsoil to Redline to Schaeffers etc. Good oils with 5-10K OCI's.

My 4Runner and my '98 LS 400 started leaking oil from valve cover and cam seals and finally has progressed to staining the driveway.

I started listening to AGCO Podcasts and they are staunch proponents of 3K OCI. Here is a copy and paste from their website:

The most common cause of failure with valve cover gaskets is a lack of maintenance. With extended oil changes, we may deplete engine oil additives that help keep valve cover gaskets pliable.
Without this protection, gaskets and seals get hard and may start to leak.


What is your opinion of this statement? Are we being duped by our owner's manual instructions and our focus on oil analysis?


I assume you are referring to seal conditioners. There are additives that get used up as the OCI increases. The ability to handle acids produced by combustion being one. As long as the oil is still usable with respect TBN, viscosity and various contaminates, I would not worry about the seal conditioner.

 

[JLTD]

I could read the Pink just fine...some may draw conclusions due to the color choice.

let them.

And a correction - meant valve cover gaskets, not head gaskets. That'll teach me to post right after waking up.

 

[doitmyself]

GEBO,

Somebody here turned me on to the AGCO auto care site a few years ago. They seem to be a top notch company that endorses excellent car car and ethical business practices.

Having said that, my perusal of their site indicates that they are not up to date on "some" modern car care topics. Their literature is somewhat self serving in that they often propose shorter maintenance schedules with the mantra that you will save big bucks over the long term by avoiding major issues.

Look at the link below. The KEY STATEMENT is that people should adjust their OCI based on their driving habits and conditions. Then the article lays out propaganda implying everyone is short trippers and they show sludge pictures to invoke fear in the uneducated. Their tactics are very obvious and should throw up a red flag for us educated oil nerds.

I like their promotion of ethical car care, but their scare tactics are a bit over the top.

Linky: http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/54

"It is quite common for us to see vehicles with 200,000 to 300,000 miles that are still giving excellent service. Largely these are vehicles that have been well maintained, with three thousand mile oil changes. It is also very common to see vehicles with 100,000 miles that are no longer economically feasible to repair (NEFR.) Overall lowest cost of driving dictates prevention of problems, rather than repair or replacement. "

 

[Gebo]

I just found AGCO a month ago. I hadn't thought about conditioners being depleted over time. I have learned a lot from listening to them. They are big on OEM parts (as am I) for most parts. Big on Moog suspension replacement parts. And apparently they only sell Michelin tires and Motorcraft batteries. They really push diagnostic procedures.

They say the highest quality of vehicles were made late ‘90's
up to around 2005-2006. Their opinion is many of today's cars are designed to last 100k and then become disposable.

Many things they say make a lot of sense.

That's why I want y'all's opinion of the "pink sentences."

 

[Railrust]

Never heard of AGCO, but I read through some of their website and I agree with some of it. I think cars can handle a lot of abuse, but engines have changed over the past five years - direct injection has changed the game - no longer can people go 7,500 miles without opening the hood (I mean, they can but it's not the same as it was 5 years ago). I find these direct injection engines tend to use a little oil, and with the intervals from manufacturers going longer and longer? You see people come in and at 7,000 miles there's no oil on that dipstick. Can't be a good thing. And AGCO is right to an extent...most people do severe service and they aren't even aware of it. Even I commute a good 80 miles round trip every day...it's "ideal", but on the weekends I do lots of short tripping. Kind of ruins the "ideal" driving I do.

And I'll tell yeah, there's still a lot of techs out there that abide by the 3,000 mile oil change intervals on their own vehicles. I see it all of the time. I'm a tech. I tell them...hey, you're changing it too early, but they say they don't want to mess with going further...that oil is cheap...that I can be the crazy one and extend my intervals out to 5,000 miles (they think THAT'S too long, lol).

 

[csandste]

I've decided to go 5w30 with 5K OCI's because of DI, but the idea of changing very expensive oil at 3K intervals in order to save a valve cover at hundreds of thousands of miles doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Gebo]

Rear main seals can be pretty expensive. Cam seals can be very expensive, too.

But note, if you aren't planning on keeping your car for 20 years it probably won't matter.

 

[danez_yoda]

Scotty Kilmer is big on this stuff. Worth a shot. Also switching to high mileage oil which has seal conditioners.

https://www.amazon.com/ATP-AT-205-Re-Seal-Stops-Bottle/dp/B000NVW1LM?ref_=ast_bbp_dp

 

[borgward]

Don't take the salesman's word for anything. Do an extended OCI, send sample in for analysis. That will tell you if enough is still in the oil or not.

 

[Gebo]

Originally Posted by danez_yoda

Scotty Kilmer is big on this stuff. Worth a shot. Also switching to high mileage oil which has seal conditioners.

https://www.amazon.com/ATP-AT-205-Re-Seal-Stops-Bottle/dp/B000NVW1LM?ref_=ast_bbp_dp


It's in my hand right now.

 

[NO2]

A 3K OCI is just ridiculous and a waste except under extreme circumstances. That was probably a good OCI in the 1940's and 1950's. 5-6K is more reasonable for a DI engine.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted by Gebo
You can see I try keep my cars for the duration. I only use OEM Toyota/Lexus parts and fluids (even brake fluid and batteries). For the majority of their lives (so far) my oils have varied from Amsoil to Redline to Schaeffers etc. Good oils with 5-10K OCI's.

My 4Runner and my '98 LS 400 started leaking oil from valve cover and cam seals and finally has progressed to staining the driveway.

I started listening to AGCO Podcasts and they are staunch proponents of 3K OCI. Here is a copy and paste from their website:

The most common cause of failure with valve cover gaskets is a lack of maintenance. With extended oil changes, we may deplete engine oil additives that help keep valve cover gaskets pliable.
Without this protection, gaskets and seals get hard and may start to leak.


What is your opinion of this statement? Are we being duped by our owner's manual instructions and our focus on oil analysis?


I think that over time they may have seen cars with below average seal quality using below average oil and came to the conclusion that very conservative oil change intervals is the best "insurance" to avoid leaks.

There is likely something there in the idea that extending oil changes could lead to leaks. But it is going to be case specific and dependent on seal material, oil used, usage pattern.

Recently, I've decided to become more conservative on extended oil changes. I did get some leaks after extending oil change intervals but that could also be vehicle and age related.

Here is an interesting article on the topic: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/238/extended-oil-drains

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

The NEWEST car I have is 15 years old. It runs, stops, steers and sounds like a new car, and leaks nothing. THAT being said, it is BITOG maintained; I've got slightly more than 1/2 your miles...150K+, I've replaced valve cover gaskets, oil pan gasket, transmission oil cooler lines, PS fluid lines, heater hoses & heater core, serpentine belt, water pump, A/C compressor & evaporator core, etc., anything that leaks or breaks...

I agree with simple_gifts, it is simply Old car issues. My opinion is that no amount of oil change frequency is going to preserve old valve cover gaskets. On my "old car" I love that everything works and the icing is it's paid for.....and yes, it has a few dents and dings and I could care less who parks next to me....I love it. BTW, I use Amsoil for all fluids, even grease and PS fluid, and I change oil ~10-12K, after all, I'm using the best oil on the market.

Simple facts: older cars REQUIRE more maintenance.

 

[DrDanger]

So the Russian oil forum I go to says: Cheap group I oil is a seal conditioner/sweller.
Try adding a quart of cheap dino.
I kind of fixed a slight power-steering leek with a mineral Dex II, not 100%, but level stays on full.
They also see 1-2% of Group I (VOA spectroscopy) in Valvoline Maxlife, they bet its there for that seal conditioning. I kind of believe them on that one...

 

[tom slick]

My Mazda has had oil changes at 7500+ during its 250k life. It runs great and doesn't leak. Always synthetic. Anxiety over valve cover leakage dictating OCI seems ridiculous.