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Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: sunruh] #5273376 11/21/19 07:54 AM
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Bonz Offline
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What is the opinion in terms of the additive packages that get reported on the Blackstone UOA's?

From my experience every single Blackstone report I have, with regards to zinc and phosphorus, is lower by a large amount compared to what the manufacturers state in their PDS.

Can't comment on the Blackstone wear number ppm accuracy because I don't have anything else to compare to.

Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5273400 11/21/19 08:21 AM
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bulwnkl Online Content
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I have no confidence in any aspect of BSLabs’ reports.


I use speech recognition frequently. Please excuse any consequent grammatical or typographical errors.
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: bulwnkl] #5273562 11/21/19 11:34 AM
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jtwrace Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bulwnkl
I have no confidence in any aspect of BSLabs’ reports.

Who do you trust then?


"Science is not a democracy"-Earl Geddes Ph.D.
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5288560 12/08/19 01:42 PM
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Wow after reading this thread any intrest ive ever had in doing an analysis is gone. My take on possibilities for the different results could also be they just pour a sample and tested it without shaking the sample up and I would think this would lead to bad results. Perhaps the fuel settled or opposite. Either way they somehow ended up with way more fuel in the second test. These test are only as good as the tester that’s taking them. And this alone shows they can’t be trusted just like 95 percent of mechanics out there. To lazy to do the job right even when a person is willing to pay for the job to be done right.

Last edited by R1jake; 12/08/19 01:44 PM.

Yamaha R1 5vy
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Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: R1jake] #5289137 12/09/19 07:33 AM
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jtwrace Offline OP
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Originally Posted by R1jake
Wow after reading this thread any intrest ive ever had in doing an analysis is gone. My take on possibilities for the different results could also be they just pour a sample and tested it without shaking the sample up and I would think this would lead to bad results. Perhaps the fuel settled or opposite. Either way they somehow ended up with way more fuel in the second test. These test are only as good as the tester that’s taking them. And this alone shows they can’t be trusted just like 95 percent of mechanics out there. To lazy to do the job right even when a person is willing to pay for the job to be done right.

For giggles, my next sample will be sent to two different labs. I've NEVER had this experience with other labs. Very expensive decisions were made on oil analysis so this is new territory for me. If they're testing to the ASTM standards and are accredited this shouldn't be an issue so I'm not sure what the issue is on their end.


"Science is not a democracy"-Earl Geddes Ph.D.
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: Bonz] #5289183 12/09/19 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonz
What is the opinion in terms of the additive packages that get reported on the Blackstone UOA's?

Also remember that any UOA is not reporting "additive packages", it is reporting a simple elemental analysis. One has no idea really where the elements came from, you can make educated guesses but nothing regarding specific compounds is being reported in that analysis.

Having said that though, I agree that the levels of elements on one sample should be far more consistent that what we see here for Blackstone labs.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5289201 12/09/19 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jtwrace
If they're testing to the ASTM standards and are accredited this shouldn't be an issue so I'm not sure what the issue is on their end.


thats a mighty big "IF" you put at the front there.

riddle me this:
why do some reports (from the same motor done dozens of times) show silver and others dont?
how could that actually vary?

or a voa shows no antimony yet the uoa does? and again...not every time.
so just randomly my motor sheds silver and antimony? really?

or better yet, the the above case...fuel dilution vary by 2.5%!!!


motorcycle oil myth buster
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: sunruh] #5289736 12/09/19 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sunruh
Originally Posted by jtwrace
If they're testing to the ASTM standards and are accredited this shouldn't be an issue so I'm not sure what the issue is on their end.


thats a mighty big "IF" you put at the front there.

riddle me this:
why do some reports (from the same motor done dozens of times) show silver and others dont?
how could that actually vary?

or a voa shows no antimony yet the uoa does? and again...not every time.
so just randomly my motor sheds silver and antimony? really?

or better yet, the the above case...fuel dilution vary by 2.5%!!!


According to their site, they do test to those ASTM standards. I have no idea why elements should show up that you wouldn't expect. My fuel dilution miss was a big miss but at least it was corrected after I requested a retest. I never did get an answer on how/why it was missed.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/about-us/astm-methods/

[Linked Image]


"Science is not a democracy"-Earl Geddes Ph.D.
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5290877 12/10/19 08:53 PM
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Bonz Offline
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I think it's an honest and realistic question for them to provide more than a canned response or to quote specs that mean nothing in and of themselves unless you look them all up.

Ask them how that type of an error can occur, as in what are the circumstances under which a mis-reading like that comes about. These are just examples but at least it will give them something to answer to: Improper handling of the sample, not using enough sample or not making sure it was mixed and not separated out, contamination of the sample by another sample they were working on at the same time, improper heating of the sample.

Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: Bonz] #5291516 12/11/19 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonz
I think it's an honest and realistic question for them to provide more than a canned response or to quote specs that mean nothing in and of themselves unless you look them all up.

Ask them how that type of an error can occur, as in what are the circumstances under which a mis-reading like that comes about. These are just examples but at least it will give them something to answer to: Improper handling of the sample, not using enough sample or not making sure it was mixed and not separated out, contamination of the sample by another sample they were working on at the same time, improper heating of the sample.


I did ask. Lame response even though they did admit their massive mistake.


"Science is not a democracy"-Earl Geddes Ph.D.
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5292185 12/12/19 08:09 AM
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sunruh Offline
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Originally Posted by jtwrace
Originally Posted by sunruh
Originally Posted by jtwrace
If they're testing to the ASTM standards and are accredited this shouldn't be an issue so I'm not sure what the issue is on their end.


thats a mighty big "IF" you put at the front there.

riddle me this:
why do some reports (from the same motor done dozens of times) show silver and others dont?
how could that actually vary?

or a voa shows no antimony yet the uoa does? and again...not every time.
so just randomly my motor sheds silver and antimony? really?

or better yet, the the above case...fuel dilution vary by 2.5%!!!


According to their site, they do test to those ASTM standards. I have no idea why elements should show up that you wouldn't expect. My fuel dilution miss was a big miss but at least it was corrected after I requested a retest. I never did get an answer on how/why it was missed.


WHY did you have to request a retest if these standards are followed?

hmmmm!!!

WHY???

doesnt that prove that they were NOT!


motorcycle oil myth buster
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5292221 12/12/19 08:43 AM
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I no longer have access to those specific ASTM standards, but some don't dictate how the machines are calibrated or initialized (unless you are using ASTM specific equipment). They give repeatability and reproducibility data for the experiment as described but repeatability for a specific machine is entirely different. The lab is responsible for using standards to determine if the machines are reporting correctly. At least that is how it was when I ran UOA in college, we always had to make sure the machine operated properly and was reporting correct values.

So I'm not sure that giving a bunch of ASTM standards really addresses whether the machines are calibrated. It gives the methods for the tests but if the machine is reporting inaccurate values for carefully controlled tests then that's a problem.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: jtwrace] #5292379 12/12/19 11:54 AM
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sunruh Offline
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and yet is that part of what you are paying for?

accurate results


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Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: sunruh] #5292408 12/12/19 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sunruh
and yet is that part of what you are paying for?

accurate results

Yes. Back when I was using AA to perform the analysis we had to check the machine calibration against a standard solution before each element, not just each sample.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: 2019 Yamaha Waverunner FX Cruiser HO - Amsoil Marine 10W-40 [Re: kschachn] #5292893 12/12/19 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kschachn
I no longer have access to those specific ASTM standards, but some don't dictate how the machines are calibrated or initialized (unless you are using ASTM specific equipment). They give repeatability and reproducibility data for the experiment as described but repeatability for a specific machine is entirely different. The lab is responsible for using standards to determine if the machines are reporting correctly. At least that is how it was when I ran UOA in college, we always had to make sure the machine operated properly and was reporting correct values.

So I'm not sure that giving a bunch of ASTM standards really addresses whether the machines are calibrated. It gives the methods for the tests but if the machine is reporting inaccurate values for carefully controlled tests then that's a problem.

Yeah I'm fully aware of ASTM standards as I have to follow them daily and am part of creating some of them too. If BS doesn't follow them, yet mentions that's what they abide by then basically all results are useless. I highly doubt they run a lab that is that far in left field. Can mistakes happen? Sure. Should they happen? Not at this level. The good news is that anyone that knows what they're looking at would catch it.


"Science is not a democracy"-Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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