Valvetrain noise
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Why would it be opposite? If anything influences startup noise it is going to be MOFT.
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Maybe in hot weather,all the hotter thinner oil drips off the valve train into the pan,causing startup tick?
Because when its cold outside...oil gets thicker...and when you start your engine in a morning chaintensioner tightens your chain on your valves quicker....
Originally Posted by kschachn
Why would it be opposite? If anything influences startup noise it is going to be MOFT.
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
Originally Posted by PimTac
What car is this?
'18 Camry 4 cyl. I usually get a noise that sounds like the timing chain is dry in the morning for few seconds. Then it goes away. But now it is 40 and below, it doesn't make that noise anymore. And during the startup, it starts up like I had just driven it, no noise, which is very bizzare. Since piston slap is normal and/or other valvetrain noise is normal when it is cold. But in this case it is vice versa.
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Maybe in hot weather,all the hotter thinner oil drips off the valve train into the pan,causing startup tick?
The noise only happens in the cold start mornings of 60F+.
Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Because when its cold outside...oil gets thicker...and when you start your engine in a morning chaintensioner tightens your chain on your valves quicker....
Not too sure about that one. The oil is a Mobil 1 0w-16. I don't think it would have problems pumping up at 60F+ temps in the mornings.
Why would it be opposite? If anything influences startup noise it is going to be MOFT.
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
Originally Posted by PimTac
What car is this?
'18 Camry 4 cyl. I usually get a noise that sounds like the timing chain is dry in the morning for few seconds. Then it goes away. But now it is 40 and below, it doesn't make that noise anymore. And during the startup, it starts up like I had just driven it, no noise, which is very bizzare. Since piston slap is normal and/or other valvetrain noise is normal when it is cold. But in this case it is vice versa.
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Maybe in hot weather,all the hotter thinner oil drips off the valve train into the pan,causing startup tick?
The noise only happens in the cold start mornings of 60F+.
Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Because when its cold outside...oil gets thicker...and when you start your engine in a morning chaintensioner tightens your chain on your valves quicker....
Not too sure about that one. The oil is a Mobil 1 0w-16. I don't think it would have problems pumping up at 60F+ temps in the mornings.
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
My guess is the the thickness of the oil film at startup is going to be greater in the winter than the summer. The valve train has many parts operating in boundary area lubrication so a thicker oil film, leftover oil from the previous running, at startup would seem to make things quieter as opposed to a thinner oil film at startup in the warmer summer months. (oil film thickness collapses as temperature rises)
Anywho..not sure I stated it properly or I'm entirely accurate here but I *think* I am, but/so feel free to "check my work" as they say.....
Anywho..not sure I stated it properly or I'm entirely accurate here but I *think* I am, but/so feel free to "check my work" as they say.....
Last edited:
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
My guess is the the thickness of the oil film at startup is going to be greater in the winter than the summer. The valve train has many parts operating in boundary area lubrication so a thicker oil film, leftover oil from the previous running, at startup would seem to make things quieter as opposed to a thinner oil film at startup in the warmer summer months. (oil film thickness collapses as temperature rises)
Anywho..not sure I stated it properly or I'm entirely accurate here but I *think* I am, but/so feel free to "check my work" as they say.....
In that case in the summer, if I go with Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, I will not have valvetrain noise like the cold season? Not sure if it is worth the switch? Vehicle does not have oil consumption problem and great fuel economy.
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
My guess is the the thickness of the oil film at startup is going to be greater in the winter than the summer. The valve train has many parts operating in boundary area lubrication so a thicker oil film, leftover oil from the previous running, at startup would seem to make things quieter as opposed to a thinner oil film at startup in the warmer summer months. (oil film thickness collapses as temperature rises)
Anywho..not sure I stated it properly or I'm entirely accurate here but I *think* I am, but/so feel free to "check my work" as they say.....
In that case in the summer, if I go with Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, I will not have valvetrain noise like the cold season? Not sure if it is worth the switch? Vehicle does not have oil consumption problem and great fuel economy.
I have that same car since March 2019 12,000 miles now . Mine is perfectly quiet, as quiet as they normally are and start up cold or hot. I know my noises well because I've owned a lot of old cars and am intimately familiar with sounds when things go bad. I would suggest getting a mechanics stethoscope and having someone else start it while you listen for where the noise comes from.
I got my car at 5000 miles as a trade-in from Toyota dealer. Judging by the color of the oil being clear I'd say they changed it at five when it was traded. Sticker on the windshield indicated change it at 10 again for what it's worth. I change mine at five as I don't buy into that extended oil change business when it comes to direct injected engines in the potential dilution issues. In my case I put 0-20 mobile one in at my last oil change 3000 miles ago. What Toyota had in there initially I don't know but I noticed no change in gas mileage between the two for what it's worth. 32 mixed driving miles per gallon is pretty usual up to 35 on highway only trips.
You might try changing oil filter brands. Neither the Fram ultra( all I could find ) or the OEM made any difference in my case but it's worth a shot. You might run it over to toyota and let them hear it however you know what they will say 🤦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸ Just like the infamous 8 speed tranny gripes 🙊🙈ðŸ™............
I got my car at 5000 miles as a trade-in from Toyota dealer. Judging by the color of the oil being clear I'd say they changed it at five when it was traded. Sticker on the windshield indicated change it at 10 again for what it's worth. I change mine at five as I don't buy into that extended oil change business when it comes to direct injected engines in the potential dilution issues. In my case I put 0-20 mobile one in at my last oil change 3000 miles ago. What Toyota had in there initially I don't know but I noticed no change in gas mileage between the two for what it's worth. 32 mixed driving miles per gallon is pretty usual up to 35 on highway only trips.
You might try changing oil filter brands. Neither the Fram ultra( all I could find ) or the OEM made any difference in my case but it's worth a shot. You might run it over to toyota and let them hear it however you know what they will say 🤦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸ Just like the infamous 8 speed tranny gripes 🙊🙈ðŸ™............
Originally Posted by painfx
In that case in the summer, if I go with Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, I will not have valvetrain noise like the cold season? Not sure if it is worth the switch? Vehicle does not have oil consumption problem and great fuel economy.
Possible..why don't you try it next summer and let us know...or unless running a slightly thicker oil for a single oci is gonna put you in the poor house, than no.. don't try it out. And fwiw I highly doubt you'll see any meaningful difference in mpg's between an 0w16 and 0w20 in the warm summer months of New Jersey.
In that case in the summer, if I go with Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, I will not have valvetrain noise like the cold season? Not sure if it is worth the switch? Vehicle does not have oil consumption problem and great fuel economy.
Possible..why don't you try it next summer and let us know...or unless running a slightly thicker oil for a single oci is gonna put you in the poor house, than no.. don't try it out. And fwiw I highly doubt you'll see any meaningful difference in mpg's between an 0w16 and 0w20 in the warm summer months of New Jersey.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
Exactly. I would think the "thicker" cold oil cushions parts with a "thicker" oil film making them quieter. Much like a hot 50 grade oil would make a noisy engine quieter than a hot 20 grade oil would.
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
Exactly. I would think the "thicker" cold oil cushions parts with a "thicker" oil film making them quieter. Much like a hot 50 grade oil would make a noisy engine quieter than a hot 20 grade oil would.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
Exactly. I would think the "thicker" cold oil cushions parts with a "thicker" oil film making them quieter. Much like a hot 50 grade oil would make a noisy engine quieter than a hot 20 grade oil would.
It makes sense now. Thanks.
It does feel smoother on acceleration in the cold season.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by painfx
I would think opposite because oil flows better if it is not cold. What is MOFT?
If mechanisms that are dependant on oil viscosity/thickness and are fed by a positive displacement (PD) oil pump, then they are still getting the same oil volume (PD pump). But with thicker cold oil those mechanisms (chain tensioners, hydraulic lash adjusters, etc) may react better. Oil pressure at cold start-up will be a bit higher also with thicker oil.
MOFT = minimum oil film thickness.
Exactly. I would think the "thicker" cold oil cushions parts with a "thicker" oil film making them quieter. Much like a hot 50 grade oil would make a noisy engine quieter than a hot 20 grade oil would.
It makes sense now. Thanks.
It does feel smoother on acceleration in the cold season.
Why does everyone say oil is thicker cold? Oil acts like 0 grade cold so it flows quicker and a 16 grade at 212 degrees. Most new vehicles have a variable oil pump that adds more pressure cold and less pressure hot all in the name of saving fuel. The only thing I can think of is oil pressure is higher and flow is quicker.
Originally Posted by tiger862
Why does everyone say oil is thicker cold?
Um, because it is, and exponentially so. Sometimes cold viscosities are 200 times thicker. Have you ever seen a graph on it? Ming you this chart is just from 104f to 212f, when you start talking cold temps viscosities can be in the 1,000's.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2019/11/full-76018-38409-no.jpeg "[Linked Image]")
Why does everyone say oil is thicker cold?
Um, because it is, and exponentially so. Sometimes cold viscosities are 200 times thicker. Have you ever seen a graph on it? Ming you this chart is just from 104f to 212f, when you start talking cold temps viscosities can be in the 1,000's.
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by tiger862
Why does everyone say oil is thicker cold?
Um, because it is, and exponentially so. Sometimes cold viscosities are 200 times thicker. Have you ever seen a graph on it? Ming you this chart is just from 104f to 212f, when you start talking cold temps viscosities can be in the 1,000's.
Thanks for the graph. I have had this argument before and reason I was wrong was 0 grade was lighter than 20 grade or as was told to me 0 weight is lighter than 20 weight. When I looked up viscosity mistakingly I read it backwards. Viscosity at 40c is at 34.4 and 100c is 6.8 for 0w16. I stand corrected.
Originally Posted by tiger862
Why does everyone say oil is thicker cold?
Um, because it is, and exponentially so. Sometimes cold viscosities are 200 times thicker. Have you ever seen a graph on it? Ming you this chart is just from 104f to 212f, when you start talking cold temps viscosities can be in the 1,000's.
Thanks for the graph. I have had this argument before and reason I was wrong was 0 grade was lighter than 20 grade or as was told to me 0 weight is lighter than 20 weight. When I looked up viscosity mistakingly I read it backwards. Viscosity at 40c is at 34.4 and 100c is 6.8 for 0w16. I stand corrected.
Originally Posted by PimTac
There is no such thing as 0 weight oil as far as motor oil is concerned nor is there a 0 grade.
Here we go again.
A single-grade engine oil, as defined by SAE J300, cannot use a polymeric viscosity index improver (VII, also viscosity modifier, VM) additive. SAE J300 has established eleven viscosity grades, of which six are considered Winter-grades and given a W designation. The 11 viscosity grades are 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, 25W, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60. These numbers are often referred to as the "weight" of a motor oil, and single-grade motor oils are often called "straight-weight" oils.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Single-grade
There is no such thing as 0 weight oil as far as motor oil is concerned nor is there a 0 grade.
Here we go again.
A single-grade engine oil, as defined by SAE J300, cannot use a polymeric viscosity index improver (VII, also viscosity modifier, VM) additive. SAE J300 has established eleven viscosity grades, of which six are considered Winter-grades and given a W designation. The 11 viscosity grades are 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, 25W, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60. These numbers are often referred to as the "weight" of a motor oil, and single-grade motor oils are often called "straight-weight" oils.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Single-grade
Yes you're right, here we go again. Given your complete lack of even simple physics knowledge above it's not surprising you get this wrong as well. There is no 0 grade oil, PimTac is correct. A winter rating is not the same.
Go buy me some 0W-0 oil.
Go buy me some 0W-0 oil.
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