Fiat Chrysler and PSA Group exploring merger.

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis
Quote


I am not confident which of the US makers will fold first, but a sudden turn of the market away from large trucks will be disastrous for at least one of them.


I'd say both FCA and Ford would be hurting if the market sways away from large trucks.

FCAs main point is the Ram lineup. Chrysler nameplate is what, 2 vehicles? Fiat from what I hear isnt doing so hot in the US with the 500 now, and Dodge is mainly sportier cars. Jeep has the best survival possible, since Jeep has a pretty set in stone market.

Ford is moving away from most sedans, and will eventually be full of FWD Not-SUV Mall Crawler "SUVs", mustangs, and trucks.

Shoot even GM might get some hurt, arent they getting rid of the Cruze, Impala, Malibu?

Anyway, yeah. Companies ditching sedans drives me crazy. I understand people want the space of a SUV but want the ease of maintaining and fuel economy of a sedan, call me old fashioned but just get a Wagon if that's the case.


TL; DR: Screw Crossovers. If you want a sedan with more space, buy a wagon. Screw CAFE standards, bring back 6-8L big block engines, sub 1$ gas, and sub 10mpg economy bonus points if it's in a Woodside Station Wagon. MAKE CARS GREAT AGAIN






Yessir, complete with the peeling fake wood wallpaper on the sides and the doors that didn't line up right.

 

[GumbyJarvis]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis
Quote


I am not confident which of the US makers will fold first, but a sudden turn of the market away from large trucks will be disastrous for at least one of them.


I'd say both FCA and Ford would be hurting if the market sways away from large trucks.

FCAs main point is the Ram lineup. Chrysler nameplate is what, 2 vehicles? Fiat from what I hear isnt doing so hot in the US with the 500 now, and Dodge is mainly sportier cars. Jeep has the best survival possible, since Jeep has a pretty set in stone market.

Ford is moving away from most sedans, and will eventually be full of FWD Not-SUV Mall Crawler "SUVs", mustangs, and trucks.

Shoot even GM might get some hurt, arent they getting rid of the Cruze, Impala, Malibu?

Anyway, yeah. Companies ditching sedans drives me crazy. I understand people want the space of a SUV but want the ease of maintaining and fuel economy of a sedan, call me old fashioned but just get a Wagon if that's the case.


TL; DR: Screw Crossovers. If you want a sedan with more space, buy a wagon. Screw CAFE standards, bring back 6-8L big block engines, sub 1$ gas, and sub 10mpg economy bonus points if it's in a Woodside Station Wagon. MAKE CARS GREAT AGAIN






Yessir, complete with the peeling fake wood wallpaper on the sides and the doors that didn't line up right.


That's the charm of it. LOL
But seriously. A FWD "SUV" is...just.. gross.

No offense to anyone who owns a Rogue or similar crossover, but to me they're second generation mom cars or the "new" minivan.

There are exceptions, such as AWD models out there, but dang. I just miss full size sedans as well as a larger wagon market, dont mind me.

 

[PimTac]

No charm at all. Many thought it was good manners to see someone close the door on that Ford stationwagon for the passenger but the actual reason was that in order for the door to close securely one had to lift up on the door handle with one hand and push with the other.

No thanks. I'll keep my crossover.

 

[GumbyJarvis]

Originally Posted by PimTac
No charm at all. Many thought it was good manners to see someone close the door on that Ford stationwagon for the passenger but the actual reason was that in order for the door to close securely one had to lift up on the door handle with one hand and push with the other.

No thanks. I'll keep my crossover.


The woodgrain doesnt have to come back, LOL
The few wagons of today are lightyears ahead of any old ford station wagon.

One of the most pleasant driving experiences I've had was in a Golf Sportwagen Alltrack, as well as a new Volvo Wagon. The Buick TourX isnt bad at all either.
They all have nicer lines than any crossover I've ever come across as well.

If this merger happens, I wouldnt mind seeing a shared platform with the Peugeot 508 wagon. If you could fit a 5.7 or Pentastar in it, bring back the Magnum

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis
Anyway, yeah. Companies ditching sedans drives me crazy. I understand people want the space of a SUV but want the ease of maintaining and fuel economy of a sedan, call me old fashioned but just get a Wagon if that's the case.


TL; DR: Screw Crossovers. If you want a sedan with more space, buy a wagon. Screw CAFE standards, bring back 6-8L big block engines, sub 1$ gas, and sub 10mpg economy bonus points if it's in a Woodside Station Wagon. MAKE CARS GREAT AGAIN


If I could get a new, rear-wheel-drive fullsize wagon, like a Caprice Estate or a Colony Park, I would be all over it. Would take it over any SUV.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted by MI_Roger
Both Ford and GM have severed nearly all global brand ownership and affiliations. GM has part ownership of a bunch of Chinese manufacturers, one of whom builds the Buick Envision. GM still has Daewoo in Korea who builds the Buick Envoy and Chevy Trax, but Daewoo is on life support.


And Holden in Australia, who are just slapping badges on other brands. They could join Vauxhall and Opel in PSA.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the WSJ, "Fiat Chrysler, Peugeot's Merger Faces a Rocky Road to Success" and why the merger is almost a guaranteed bust,

"Fiat Chrysler's Italian factories ran at 57% capacity last year, compared with 88% in the U.S., according to LMC Automotive.

In the face of fierce political opposition, Mr. Marchionne, who died last year, closed one relatively small Italian factory. Instead of further closures, he relied—as many large Italian companies do—on temporary layoff schemes largely paid for by the government.

While Italian labor unions have lost some clout over the years, including in their battles with Mr. Marchionne, they remain powerful. On Wednesday, a union leader said any deal must guarantee "full employment and full use of Italian factories."


Sounds like a deal made in heaven.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Here's an interesting tidbit from the WSJ, "Fiat Chrysler, Peugeot's Merger Faces a Rocky Road to Success" and why the merger is almost a guaranteed bust,

"Fiat Chrysler's Italian factories ran at 57% capacity last year, compared with 88% in the U.S., according to LMC Automotive.

In the face of fierce political opposition, Mr. Marchionne, who died last year, closed one relatively small Italian factory. Instead of further closures, he relied—as many large Italian companies do—on temporary layoff schemes largely paid for by the government.

While Italian labor unions have lost some clout over the years, including in their battles with Mr. Marchionne, they remain powerful. On Wednesday, a union leader said any deal must guarantee "full employment and full use of Italian factories."


Sounds like a deal made in heaven.

And the game of hot potato will continue.

 

[PimTac]

Some more consolidation news out of Japan. Honda and Hitachi will merge automotive parts suppliers.


https://news.yahoo.com/hitachi-auto-unit-honda-affiliated-065934770.html

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Some more consolidation news out of Japan. Honda and Hitachi will merge automotive parts suppliers.


https://news.yahoo.com/hitachi-auto-unit-honda-affiliated-065934770.html

Hitachi has traditionally been a major supplier to Nissan and Subaru. Honda had their own crew(Keihin/Nissin/Showa/Hadsys/Yamada/Metts). I'm guessing since Nissan is now using more parts from European suppliers(notably Valeo) from the Renault alliance and Subaru/Mazda are using more Toyota alliance parts(Denso/Aisin/Advics/J-Tekt) Hitachi was left in the middle. Honda doesn't have the benefit of being connected to other companies or having the in-house knowledge for BEVs like say Toyota who makes the major stuff in-house and has Panasonic in their court for batteries and electronic components. Nissan would probably depend more on Valeo and Conti for xEV stuff and Samsung for batteries I'm thinking.

The French and Germans have been getting into Japan's market more so since the Nissan-Renault Alliance. Denso and Bosch have an agreement between them since the 1960s. Valeo bought out a Japanese lighting supplier whose main client is Nissan. Fareucia bought out Clarion who is again a major Nissan supplier(Subaru and Honda also use Clarion audio). Conti signed a deal with Yokohama and Akebono to have their tires and ATE brakes made under license in Japan, and to get more Japanese OEM business in the US and Europe.

 

[DweezilAZ]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by skyactiv
Is this going to turn into a complain about junk Chrysler products thread?


Would it really be BITOG if someone didn't do exactly that?

I think it could be beneficial. Fiat certainly hasn't been detrimental to Chrysler.... though it is certainly time for some new platforms NOT based off old Mercedes platforms.

Always had a soft spot for Peugeot's, not sure why though lol... Would be cool to get a 308 GTI.


Except: Aside from the Crossfire they didn't use a Mercedes platform for anything else. The 300 and Charger shared rear suspension, transmission and other parts, not a platform.
Sebring, Caliber, Patriot, Journey and Compass all shared the Mitsubishi Lancer platform.

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Chrysl...neration-Mercedes-like-some-owners-claim

From Allpar:
"The LX cars used the Mercedes E class traction control, electronic stability systems, axles, wire harnesses, automatic transmissions (with five speeds rather than six), steering columns, and other major suspension components. 20% of the Magnum's components were shared with Mercedes, according to Wolfgang Bernhard (40% of the Crossfire is Mercedes so these figures are to be taken lightly).

AutoWeek (Mark Vaughn) quoted chief engineer Burke Brown as saying that while Mercedes provided many components, "few parts are straight out the Benz bin." He cited the front suspension as having a lower roll center and wider track, for example."

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by DweezilAZ
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by skyactiv
Is this going to turn into a complain about junk Chrysler products thread?


Would it really be BITOG if someone didn't do exactly that?

I think it could be beneficial. Fiat certainly hasn't been detrimental to Chrysler.... though it is certainly time for some new platforms NOT based off old Mercedes platforms.

Always had a soft spot for Peugeot's, not sure why though lol... Would be cool to get a 308 GTI.


Except: Aside from the Crossfire they didn't use a Mercedes platform for anything else. The 300 and Charger shared rear suspension, transmission and other parts, not a platform.
Sebring, Caliber, Patriot, Journey and Compass all shared the Mitsubishi Lancer platform.

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Chrysl...neration-Mercedes-like-some-owners-claim

From Allpar:
"The LX cars used the Mercedes E class traction control, electronic stability systems, axles, wire harnesses, automatic transmissions (with five speeds rather than six), steering columns, and other major suspension components. 20% of the Magnum's components were shared with Mercedes, according to Wolfgang Bernhard (40% of the Crossfire is Mercedes so these figures are to be taken lightly).

AutoWeek (Mark Vaughn) quoted chief engineer Burke Brown as saying that while Mercedes provided many components, "few parts are straight out the Benz bin." He cited the front suspension as having a lower roll center and wider track, for example."



The Grand Cherokee WK2 is based on the Mercedes W166.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by DweezilAZ
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by skyactiv
Is this going to turn into a complain about junk Chrysler products thread?


Would it really be BITOG if someone didn't do exactly that?

I think it could be beneficial. Fiat certainly hasn't been detrimental to Chrysler.... though it is certainly time for some new platforms NOT based off old Mercedes platforms.

Always had a soft spot for Peugeot's, not sure why though lol... Would be cool to get a 308 GTI.


Except: Aside from the Crossfire they didn't use a Mercedes platform for anything else. The 300 and Charger shared rear suspension, transmission and other parts, not a platform.
Sebring, Caliber, Patriot, Journey and Compass all shared the Mitsubishi Lancer platform.

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Chrysl...neration-Mercedes-like-some-owners-claim

From Allpar:
"The LX cars used the Mercedes E class traction control, electronic stability systems, axles, wire harnesses, automatic transmissions (with five speeds rather than six), steering columns, and other major suspension components. 20% of the Magnum's components were shared with Mercedes, according to Wolfgang Bernhard (40% of the Crossfire is Mercedes so these figures are to be taken lightly).

AutoWeek (Mark Vaughn) quoted chief engineer Burke Brown as saying that while Mercedes provided many components, "few parts are straight out the Benz bin." He cited the front suspension as having a lower roll center and wider track, for example."



If you read the quora link again you'll see where the original 300C was based on the old E-class platform (W211). Basically only the chassis but everything else in the car was Chrysler.

 

[LoneRanger]

Man does Chrysler ever get passed around a lot. They seem to be a hot potato no other corporation can stand to be merged with for very long.

What is PSA smoking that they want a piece of that action? It's 3:00am in the automaker night club, PSA has beer goggles on with no one to go home with and there sits Chrysler...

 

[antonmnster]

I rented a Peugeot 5008 last year, and it handled better than my BMW, sat 4 in total luxury (picnic tables!), and got almost 40 mpg. It's amazing we don't get the good stuff in the US.

 

[AC1DD]

Originally Posted by antonmnster
I rented a Peugeot 5008 last year, and it handled better than my BMW, sat 4 in total luxury (picnic tables!), and got almost 40 mpg. It's amazing we don't get the good stuff in the US.


The wagon version of the 508 is beautiful inside and out. I say leave the best Peugeot vehicles as is and just change the badge in the USA to Chrysler.

 

[dishdude]

I'm feeling kind of good about this merger. The Diamler one was a disaster, Chrysler was sitting on a ton of cash that Mercedes was after, but I feel like this one could work long term. My bigger concern is the changing of the market, I believe autonomous Uber/Lyft style cars will be taking over in the next decade and car ownership will be a thing of the past for most people.

 

[AC1DD]

Originally Posted by dishdude
. My bigger concern is the changing of the market, I believe autonomous Uber/Lyft style cars will be taking over in the next decade and car ownership will be a thing of the past for most people.



Doubt this in the USA. Even if it happens it would be for at least 50 more years.

As for EVs, they are plagued with many shortcomings from range, to fire issues, to lack of rare metals needed to make so many batteries, and of course charging stations.
The EV won't become the norm in the USA for almost 100 more years.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted by AC1DD

Doubt this in the USA. Even if it happens it would be for at least 50 more years.


Technology moves fast, and it's already here. 1/1/2030 is going to look very different than 11/1/2019.

 

[PimTac]

The thing is, the US is a big country with lots of wide open spaces contrary to what one might think. These scenarios will work in the bigger metro areas but not in the rest of the country.