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genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? #5252529 10/28/19 08:39 PM
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taztheman Offline OP
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I've read online and heard from a couple people saying that Idemitsu actually makes Honda ATF. The bottles look identical and was just curious if anyone knows. I found Idemitsu ATF on on ebay for $5.05 a quart which seems way to cheap to be actual Honda ATF.
https://ebay.to/2p9UgKR

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252533 10/28/19 08:43 PM
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Schmoe Offline
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I wouldn't chance it. I've gotten ATF for around 9 a quart delivered off of ebay. Dealers think that stuff is made out magical unicorn farts.


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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252536 10/28/19 08:50 PM
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kschachn Online Content
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Originally Posted by taztheman
I've read online and heard from a couple people saying that Idemitsu actually makes Honda ATF. The bottles look identical and was just curious if anyone knows. I found Idemitsu ATF on on ebay for $5.05 a quart which seems way to cheap to be actual Honda ATF.
https://ebay.to/2p9UgKR

Idemitsu ATF and Honda ATF DW-1 are not identical, this has been discussed on here quite a bit. The fluid in your link is not "genuine Honda ATF".

They may manufacture the Honda fluid but Idemitsu does not claim their branded fluid is licensed ATF DW-1.


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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252540 10/28/19 08:54 PM
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hallstevenson Offline
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It's not the same or even 'close'. Check this: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5169998/three-atfs-analyzed#Post5169998

Look at the difference in boron, magnesium, phosphorous, and zinc levels. I don't know, nor care, what these do but they're drastically different between Honda DW-1 and the Idemitsu fluid.

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252543 10/28/19 08:56 PM
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I wouldn't use that. Saving a few bucks every 25-50k miles isn't worth it to me.


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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252544 10/28/19 08:57 PM
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taztheman Offline OP
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Just what I was looking for, thanks for the helpful information. I was under the impression that since they made the ATF that the fluids would be identical! Glad I asked before I bought it.

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: Schmoe] #5252574 10/28/19 09:32 PM
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ctechbob Offline
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Originally Posted by Schmoe
I wouldn't chance it. I've gotten ATF for around 9 a quart delivered off of ebay. Dealers think that stuff is made out magical unicorn farts.



That's still kind of high. You can generally get DW1 for $90 delivered for 12 quarts in the CONUS.

I too was under the impression/assumption that if Idemitsu made the DW1 for Honda that their version should/would be identical, or close. That's just not the case. I do use it though and it is working fine. The thing that swayed me is conversations with a well regarded Honda Trans rebuilder. His opinion that clean fluid is much more important than a specific fluid for longevity. He doesn't use DW1 in his rebuilds as evidenced by the 55 gallon drum of (I can't remember what it was, it was a flavor of multi-use ATF) in his shop.

If you will sleep better at night, use nothing but Honda DW1. There's enough evidence around that given proper maintenance one of the 'substitute' fluids should serve you well. (MaxLife, Idemitsu, AISIN, Etc.)


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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252647 10/29/19 12:49 AM
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pitzel Online Content
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I paid $45.21 Canadian (11% sales tax included, so about $40 pre-tax) at my dealer for a 4L jug of Honda Type 2 coolant and 4L of the Honda ATF-DW1. At current exchange rates, about $31 for both. So that's under $5/US per quart.

So buy your supplies in Canada. The ATF-DW1 even says "full synthetic" on the bottle in Canada.

Considering I can't even buy generic fluid, let alone something labelled "full synthetic" (or implied, like licensed Dexron-VI) for that cheap anymore at the typical retail stores... Seriously, call your dealer and actually get a price before assuming that the stuff is a ripoff.

Last edited by pitzel; 10/29/19 12:59 AM.

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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252743 10/29/19 06:09 AM
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Sayjac Offline
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Originally Posted by taztheman
I've read online and heard from a couple people saying that Idemitsu actually makes Honda ATF. The bottles look identical and was just curious if anyone knows. I found Idemitsu ATF on on ebay for $5.05 a quart which seems way to cheap to be actual Honda ATF.
https://ebay.to/2p9UgKR
Even if Idemitsu Type H was/is the same, it's supposed to be for now Honda superseded Z1 or as Honda sometimes called it, Honda "Premium" Z1. smirk Based on H+ VOAs findings, I seriously doubt Type H the same as Z1 either.

Idemitsu H+ is supposed to be for the current DW1 fluid spec, but as shown it is not the same as the latter. Not saying H+ not fine to use as replacement, but not identical to DW1. It seems as though some like to pay a price premium for the name on the bottle and the implication, erroneous, that it is the same as DW1. Or, perhaps it's the "single use" application moniker that gets them to pay more.

Another tell, when Z1 is now superseded by DW1 by Honda, why is Idemitsu still selling the topic "H" fluid? H+ should be all that's used by Honda now. Doesn't add up.

So, while topic fluid (or Type H+) may very well be fine for use in your Honda, I wouldn't go under the assumption that because it's supposedly made by same company that makes Honda ATF, it's identical.

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5252961 10/29/19 10:36 AM
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I ran Valvoline Maxlife atf in our old 08 CRV. 180K at trade in with no issues. That transmission speced DW1.

Last edited by ARB1977; 10/29/19 10:38 AM.

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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: Sayjac] #5255293 10/31/19 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sayjac
Idemitsu H+ is supposed to be for the current DW1 fluid spec, but as shown it is not the same as the latter. Not saying H+ not fine to use as replacement, but not identical to DW1.
There are drastic differences in the composition of DW-1 and H+ and I have to ask, "why?". Why does Honda formulate it the way they do ? I have to presume they have good reason. They aren't in the business of making big money selling ATF so it's not done to trick people into thinking they have to use DW-1 and Honda has 'em by the spheres. In the grand scheme of things, it would be more cost-effective for Honda to use Valvoline Maxlife or some Dexron-based fluid. But they don't....

Originally Posted by Sayjac
Another tell, when Z1 is now superseded by DW1 by Honda, why is Idemitsu still selling the topic "H" fluid? H+ should be all that's used by Honda now. Doesn't add up.
Simple - Z1 is still perfectly acceptable for use in Hondas pre-20xx (??). Honda doesn't want to produce and/or sell (2) different fluids for logistical reasons.

Originally Posted by Sayjac
So, while topic fluid (or Type H+) may very well be fine for use in your Honda, I wouldn't go under the assumption that because it's supposedly made by same company that makes Honda ATF, it's identical.
Any blender should be able to clone DW-1 if they chose to. At first I'd think maybe it's patented but I'm quite sure it's not. Then it could be a chemist asks "why in the world does Honda use that much 'x' ?". From a chemical standpoint, they would have an idea what it does.

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5255802 11/01/19 08:57 AM
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brages Offline
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Do we think Honda has figured out a miracle blend of ATF? If Honda is so smart, why did they make so many horrible automatic transmissions...? ???

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5255939 11/01/19 11:56 AM
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I find Idemitsu H+ to be fanrtastic in Hondas. I use it in our 2006 TSX.


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Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: hallstevenson] #5255994 11/01/19 12:51 PM
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Quote
There are drastic differences in the composition of DW-1 and H+ and I have to ask, "why?".
Differences previously noted multiple times, in multiple threads including several VOA threads. As for why, as I don't use it, couldn't care less. Point was/is as topic indicates the OP was given the impression some how/way, Type H could well be the same.

Quote
Simple - Z1 is still perfectly acceptable for use in Hondas pre-20xx (??). Honda doesn't want to produce and/or sell (2) different fluids for logistical reasons.
Logistical reasons? So you have reference source for that being the case? In any case', "if" Type H was the same as Z1, highly unlikely, it's now been succeeded by DW1. Type H would be completely unnecessary now with Type H+. Only possible advantage if significantly less expensive than the latter for older Hondas.

Quote
Any blender should be able to clone DW-1 if they chose to....
Point missed. Point is it's proven H+ even though it seemingly implying it's same as DW1, it's not. I just didn't want the OP to think he's buying Z1 or DW1 under another name. Seemed clear to me.

All that said, Idemitsu Type H for Honda likely fine as spec'd by them, same for H+. Just as MaxLife MV at ~$18gallon has worked fine for me in a couple Honda applications 150k+ anecdotal mi.

Re: genuine honda ATF for $5 a quart? [Re: taztheman] #5256252 11/01/19 07:47 PM
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ctechbob Offline
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I posted this over in Mola's thread as well, but I'll put it here since it will probably get more eyes/discussion. Short of it is, I emailed Idemitsu a while ago for clarification on all the things we've discussed about their H+ over the last year or so. This is their response (Bold text done by me):

'Hello, Shawn

Thank you for reaching out to Idemitsu Lubricants America Corporation.

Your concern is important for us, so we requested our technical department to provide additional information.

The DW-1 fluid requires specific properties (for example, viscosity, viscosity retention, low-temperature viscosity, etc.) and dynamic and static friction beside standard transmission oil properties.

Taking into consideration these aspects, we would like to share with you a comparison between DW-1 and Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus:

[Linked Image]


As you can observe in the chart above, Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus meets all the key performance properties for DW-1. Also, the static and dynamic friction performances for Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus are almost identical to that of DW-1 fluid. Each transmission fluid developed by Idemitsu undergoes strict quality testing to meet the exact frictional requirements as prescribed by the automaker.

In addition to the above, we would like to reemphasize that Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus provides several other benefits that meet and exceed the average requirements of ‘standard market’ multi-vehicle transmission fluids, such as:

§ Enhanced fuel economy and superior low-temperature flow properties
§ Smoother shifting and outstanding anti-shudder performance
§ Excellent resistance to oxidation and thermal breakdown of oil
§ Superior cleanliness
§ Advanced anti-wear performance
§ Excellent seal compatibility

We understand there has been some open and passionate discussions related to the elemental analysis for DW-1, Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus and some market general multi-vehicle transmission fluids. We truly appreciate open discourse and productive feedback when it comes to the quality and performance of our products—it’s the one thing we take most seriously and are proudly confident about.

Once more, we would like to reaffirm that the Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus uses a different additive package than DW-1—however, this has no bearing or impact on the formulation’s ability to meet the prescribed performance properties for this particular transmission.

We hope the shared information will help clarify any doubts. Should you have any further questions, feel free to reach me via e-mail.

Best regards,

Thomas Khondaker
Product Manager, Aftermarket Oil
(Contact Details Omitted)

Last edited by ctechbob; 11/01/19 07:53 PM.

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