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My latest battery load test #5246666 10/22/19 04:18 AM
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Char Baby Offline OP
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Battery is the 5 year old OE in the 2015 Altima in my signature, mfg'd in Oct 2014. So, this battery is just 5 yrs old.
I often keep the battery on maintain/tender when we're not using the car often. I use a (not a BatteryTender Brand) but a 4 Stage Battery Maintainer. IDK the brand of maintainer(not marked), as it's from a previous Flo-Tech backup sump pump not being used any longer.

I had the battery load tested at AAP ~ 5pm, from an afternoon of running around doing errands. So I stopped in AAP as I saw frew cars in the parking lot and figured it's a good change they're not too busy. So, here's the test printout and I find it a bit odd.

------RESULTS------
*GOOD BATTERY*
TEMP: 67 *F
VOLTAGE: 12.79 V
RATED: 550 CCA
MEASURED: 607 CCA..................WHAT?

When having a battery load tested, I've never had an older battery measure a higher CCA than the rated CCA. I've had them read sorta close but never higher!

Any thoughts, questions or needed information?

CB


Last edited by Char Baby; 10/22/19 04:30 AM.

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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5246682 10/22/19 04:50 AM
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Cranking amps are rated at 32F, Cold Cranking Amps are rating at 0F. It shouldn't be unusual to see higher than rated cranking amps when measuring at temps higher than 0 and 32


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Tman220] #5246716 10/22/19 06:01 AM
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Char Baby Offline OP
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What does this reading mean to you in regards to the battery condition?
Do you suggest having it tested again?

Next month when our temperatures drop even more, I'll have the battery tested again.
I mean, yesterday was a warm day for our October(pushing 70*F) as we should be in the low 50s*F


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5246719 10/22/19 06:07 AM
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Donald Online Content
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You got a conductive battery test not a load test. A load test puts 1/2 the CCA load on the battery for 15 seconds and you read the voltage on a temp compensated scale.

Did AAP enter or check the temp of the battery. The better Midtronics testers can accept a temp reading to compensate the measured CCA.


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Donald] #5246747 10/22/19 07:07 AM
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Char Baby Offline OP
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Thanks Donald,
This is what AAP uses and they do call it a Load Test. However IDK, I always assumed they were doing a Load Test. It prints out a ticker tape with the information that I posted.

https://www.ebay.com/i/233341666502...p4vav5QIVEMDICh2FAQGUEAQYAiABEgI7aPD_BwE


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5246875 10/22/19 09:04 AM
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That is probably an uncompensated cranking amp result just labeled "CCA" to reduce customer confusion.

A battery ought to meet its CCA rating in a real cold test throughout the warranty period or it is defective. So they overbuild them some.

Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5246917 10/22/19 09:43 AM
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Donald Online Content
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The conductive testers can test a battery that is not fully charged and give an accurate readout. So its fast for the places that want to sell you a battery.

A true load test requires the battery to be fully charged and takes more time.

The test results you got are fine. Retest next fall.


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Donald] #5246948 10/22/19 10:24 AM
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Char Baby Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Donald
The conductive testers can test a battery that is not fully charged and give an accurate readout. So its fast for the places that want to sell you a battery.

A true load test requires the battery to be fully charged and takes more time.

The test results you got are fine. Retest next fall.


Thanks!
I will continue to plug in the "Maintainer" at least once per week(or more often) when the car is not in use(weekends etc.).


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5247036 10/22/19 11:54 AM
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Lead acid batteries always desire to be absolutely fully charged, so any charging source applied to an undercharged battery is a good thing, as long as it is not overcharging it.

Maintainers are not intended to top charge a depleted battery, but they can do so, when it is still healthy.

When the battery is aged, a maintainer might not be able to produce enough amperage to keep the battery at the correct 'float' voltage.

Float is basically to hold the battery at full charge with minimal overcharging occurring, and ideally is temperature compensated for battery temperature.

I don't have experience using load testers, whether conductive or carbon pile so no comments from me on the validity of their readings, but I do view every engine start as a load test, by watching a digital voltmeter as the starter motor is turning with an overnight cold engine.

How many times the voltmeter updates during the engine cranking can change the reading one sees, obviously one which samples 5 times a second is better than one which samples voltage 2 times a second.

When newer my 930CCA AGM battery was always able to remain over 12v cranking the overnight cold engine, now approaching 6 years and over 1200 deep cycles, this is dropping into the mid to low 9's. I can tell it is not cranking nearly as fast, yet it is in no danger of not being able to start the engine.

My battery gets deep cycled, and I often ask it to start my overnight cold engine with half or more of its capacity removed from it, and voltage falls even lower during cranking, and it is obviously slower too, but it still easily starts.

Regarding a maintainer's ability to keep a battery top charged, or to bring it to near full charge, there are a whole bunch of variables involved.

My AGM battery when new, I could hold it at 14.7v, and amperage required to maintain this voltage would eventually drop to 0.0x amps, but now, at the end of its life, amperage tapers to 4.7 amps, then starts rising again. Technically when amperage would taper to 0.4amps at 14.4 to 14.7v this battery is considered fully charged, but now amperage never tapers that low, so I consider full charge when amps stop tapering and begin rising instead, when held at 14.4 to 14.7v.

Meaning a maintainer, capable of only 1 amp of output, could never get my current aged end of life battery to absorption voltage, and while float voltage for an 77f AGM battery is 13.6v, my aged end of life battery is still requiring over 1.4 amps to be held at 13.6v, meaning a 1 amp maintainer could not hold my aged near end of life battery at 13.6v, nor hold it fully charged, it would just be turning that 1 amp into heat and perhaps be able to maintain 13.2v.

So plugging in a 1 amp maintainer on a less than fully charged aged battery might be fully inadequate not only for top charging, but holding an aged battery near full charge.

These 'end amps' is a sure sign my battery is nearly done, as is the voltage falling to the mid 9's cranking my overnight cold engine in mild ambient temperatures. I'd be interested to see the readings on an conductive tester and a carbon pile, but neither is going to tell me anything I don't already know by observing how many amps flow at what voltage, and what voltage falls to during X amount of load.

Since I do deep cycle my 90AH AGM battery nearly nightly, I also watch the voltage it can maintain powering this laptop or other things while an amp hour counter records the usage from the battery. Interestingly, the voltage it maintains during these light loads is still impressive when still over 50% charged. It is still retaining higher voltage than a big new 130AH group 31 flooded marine battery did when it was new when powering light loads, upto abut 50 to 60 amp hours from full.

If i were to base battery health only on voltage maintained powering light loads, I would not know this battery is at end of life.

While I will be getting a new battery soon(ish), I am doing it as the end amps being nearly 5 amps, is wasteful of electricity. it is taking nearly twice as much time and electricity to bump this battery back up to fully charged. The charge efficiency factor is now horrible, whereas when new it is one of the best of any lead acid battery. I carry a fully charged jumper pack 18AH battery/~170CCA(Ub12180), which by itself has started my cold engine in warm ambient temps, and will have zero issues assisting my weakened aged battery to do so when that day comes, if it comes before I decide to replace it.

Readers not wanting to deal with AP personell, or acquiring their own carbon pile or conductive battery testers, can simply watch a cheap voltmeter while they crank their engine and have their own 'load test' on every cold engine start Warm restarts on my own engine happen so quick that the voltage reading is mostly meaningless. When one regularly starts seeing voltage dropping into in the mid to high 9's or less when cranking the overnight cold engine, time to consider shopping for a new battery deal at your convenience. Readers in colder climates this time of year, might wish to make this threshold in the low 10's instead of high 9's.

Voltage at a 12v powerport/ciggy plug receptacle inside the vehicle can be significantly lower than actual battery terminal voltage though, depending on the vehicle and how many other circuits share power from the battery to the fuse block, and how many accessories are sharing that wiring at the time. One of the dashboard ciggy plug digital voltmeters is still better than nothing, and better than an analog dashboard gauge where it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between 12 and 13 volts.

A 3 wire digital voltmeter with its sense and ground wired directly to the battery terminals is best, but impractical for most.

Having a digital voltmeter visible is also great to see what the vehicle's voltage regulator is allowing as one drives. Most people have taken a voltage reading right after engine starting, and see a number in the 14's and assume that is what it always allowed by the voltage regulator, but they generally will drop into the mid 13's once things warm up. Fine for a fully charged and still healthy battery, but not so fine for an undercharged and aged one.

The dashboard voltmeter can easily alert one to a failed charging system, or if they have one of the newer vehicles that decide to keep the battery at around 80% charged, sacrificing its longevity to save a few tenths of a MPG. One might see battery voltage highway cruising drop to 12.6v or less, occassionally jumping to mid 14's. In a 1980's vehicle this would point to a bad connection somewhere in the charging circuit, but today its normal on some vehicles.

So while a carbon pile load test a standard test, or should be, one can view their own starter's load, and thus each cold engine start, as a load test, by seeing how much voltage the battery can maintain when starting the cold engine. Most will easily see when it is time to replace by this method, but a small % of batteries under 80% health/original capacity, can kick the bucket without warning too.

For best lead acid battery longevity and reliability, get them and keep them as fully charged as possible, and do not expect that the vehicle itself is capable, or trying to achieve this 'ideal'. It takes no less than 3.5 hours to charge a battery from 80% to 100%, assuming a voltage held in the mid 14's for those 3.5 hours.
One can deplete a 100% charged battery to 80% in a few minutes blasting a powerful stereo with engine off, yet would have to drive for no less than 3.5 hours to return that battery to near full charge.

Today's modern vehicles keeping lights on after engine shutdown, and high parasitic loads, ensure the battery is never fully charged, and its charging system is hardly optimized to fully recharge it in the minimum time possible, and this time would still likely be measured in hours, if it were optimized for fastest possible safe battery charging, which it is not.

Honestly I think that a 2 year lifespan of batteries in some modern vehicles is impressive seeing how chronically undercharged they always are.

Maintenance minded Bitogers seeking maximum battery longevity would ensure and verify absolute top charge as often as possible.

Achieving absolutely 100% top charge is not easy, nor is verifying it. Just know the green light on smart chargers is not that benchmark. Good enough? perhaps, but 'Ideal' is several steps above the capabilities of smart chargers, as their primary mission, is to not overcharge, and as such they fall well short of achieving a true full charge. The green 'full charge' light is a liar, 99% of the time, but any charging of a less than fully charged battery is better than no charging.


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5247096 10/22/19 12:56 PM
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Dave9 Offline
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Originally Posted by Char Baby
IDK the brand of maintainer(not marked), as it's from a previous Flo-Tech backup sump pump not being used any longer.


My Flotec FP2000 backup sump pump has a charger/maintainer part # PS117-77FP, that looks like the following (faceplate label differs) and is a relabeled Schumacher, from their Signature Series. It doesn't have the clamp style shown, just spade connectors. It has the maintenance mode and a 3rd sensing wire but it is a 10A charger, not just a maintainer.

It did a great job keeping the pump battery topped off, till a 6 cent transistor in it failed and left the battery sitting low for a long time before anyone noticed. I replaced the 6 cent transistor with a 10 cent transistor and it's still humming along today.

[Linked Image from cdn3.volusion.com]

Last edited by Dave9; 10/22/19 01:03 PM.
Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Dave9] #5247203 10/22/19 02:32 PM
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Char Baby Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by Char Baby
IDK the brand of maintainer(not marked), as it's from a previous Flo-Tech backup sump pump not being used any longer.


My Flotec FP2000 backup sump pump has a charger/maintainer part # PS117-77FP, that looks like the following (faceplate label differs) and is a relabeled Schumacher, from their Signature Series. It doesn't have the clamp style shown, just spade connectors. It has the maintenance mode and a 3rd sensing wire but it is a 10A charger, not just a maintainer.

It did a great job keeping the pump battery topped off, till a 6 cent transistor in it failed and left the battery sitting low for a long time before anyone noticed. I replaced the 6 cent transistor with a 10 cent transistor and it's still humming along today.

[Linked Image from cdn3.volusion.com]


I have a smaller 1.5 amp maintainer with mine. I also have a Schumacher battery mounted/under hood "maintainer" atop the battery in the Firebird in my signature. This battery is at least 15 yrs old. I bought this battery & maintainer together. I also keep it plugged all the time when not driving the car.

And I have yet another exact maintainer(as mentioned in my OP) that is in fact connected to my current Flotec backup sump pump with its 9 yr old deep cycle marine battery. As long as I keep up the acid level, the posts and terminals clean & lubed and the maintainer ON, it's anyones guess how long these batteries will last.


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5247213 10/22/19 02:37 PM
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Char Baby Offline OP
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wrcsixeight,

WOW & Thanks!
That's a lot of info.

smile

CB


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Re: My latest battery load test [Re: wrcsixeight] #5248448 10/23/19 08:21 PM
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Batteries are usually built/delivered with excess energy and lower impedance than needed so that it delivers nameplate after some degradation.

12.79V means it had surface charge unless it was really hot out. Open circuit voltage at reasonable temperatures should be mid 12.6-low 12.7V.

Re: My latest battery load test [Re: wrcsixeight] #5248464 10/23/19 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wrcsixeight
Lead acid batteries always desire to be absolutely fully charged, so any charging source applied to an undercharged battery is a good thing, as long as it is not overcharging it.

Maintainers are not intended to top charge a depleted battery, but they can do so, when it is still healthy.

When the battery is aged, a maintainer might not be able to produce enough amperage to keep the battery at the correct 'float' voltage.

Float is basically to hold the battery at full charge with minimal overcharging occurring, and ideally is temperature compensated for battery temperature.

...

My AGM battery when new, I could hold it at 14.7v, and amperage required to maintain this voltage would eventually drop to 0.0x amps, but now, at the end of its life, amperage tapers to 4.7 amps, then starts rising again. Technically when amperage would taper to 0.4amps at 14.4 to 14.7v this battery is considered fully charged, but now amperage never tapers that low, so I consider full charge when amps stop tapering and begin rising instead, when held at 14.4 to 14.7v.

Meaning a maintainer, capable of only 1 amp of output, could never get my current aged end of life battery to absorption voltage, and while float voltage for an 77f AGM battery is 13.6v, my aged end of life battery is still requiring over 1.4 amps to be held at 13.6v, meaning a 1 amp maintainer could not hold my aged near end of life battery at 13.6v, nor hold it fully charged, it would just be turning that 1 amp into heat and perhaps be able to maintain 13.2v.

So plugging in a 1 amp maintainer on a less than fully charged aged battery might be fully inadequate not only for top charging, but holding an aged battery near full charge.

These 'end amps' is a sure sign my battery is nearly done, as is the voltage falling to the mid 9's cranking my overnight cold engine in mild ambient temperatures. I'd be interested to see the readings on an conductive tester and a carbon pile, but neither is going to tell me anything I don't already know by observing how many amps flow at what voltage, and what voltage falls to during X amount of load.

...

Readers not wanting to deal with AP personell, or acquiring their own carbon pile or conductive battery testers, can simply watch a cheap voltmeter while they crank their engine and have their own 'load test' on every cold engine start Warm restarts on my own engine happen so quick that the voltage reading is mostly meaningless. When one regularly starts seeing voltage dropping into in the mid to high 9's or less when cranking the overnight cold engine, time to consider shopping for a new battery deal at your convenience. Readers in colder climates this time of year, might wish to make this threshold in the low 10's instead of high 9's.

...

For best lead acid battery longevity and reliability, get them and keep them as fully charged as possible, and do not expect that the vehicle itself is capable, or trying to achieve this 'ideal'. It takes no less than 3.5 hours to charge a battery from 80% to 100%, assuming a voltage held in the mid 14's for those 3.5 hours.
One can deplete a 100% charged battery to 80% in a few minutes blasting a powerful stereo with engine off, yet would have to drive for no less than 3.5 hours to return that battery to near full charge.




Ive run ammeters in series with run of the mill maintainers, and have observed current to reduce sufficiently as a percentage of Ah to be considered full charge.

What you describe as a sign of end of life in your AGM battery, I’d define as a high impedance internal short. Yes, indicative of EOL, but the reason why you’re seeing that amount of current needs to be defined. Unless you held the battery, open circuit, in a controlled atmosphere, and watched the voltage/SOC drop, versus when new, it would be tough to determine.

Condemnation should be doubling impedance or 20% capacity loss. You’re right that you should be able to observe voltage under load, but ideally you would know new and used parameters. Keeping conduction voltage above some level is a good surrogate though.

I agree that it takes a LONG time to charge a battery full, and cars won’t really do it...

Re: My latest battery load test [Re: Char Baby] #5248518 10/23/19 10:07 PM
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One cannot determine full charge by amperage accepted as a percentage of capacity at typical maintainer voltages. 13.6 to 13.8v. Only at absorption voltage,14.2 to 14.8v.

Ive not tested the voltage output of every maintainer and wont, but few are going to achieve mid 14s, and most cant if they only have 1.5 amps maximum to work with.

Earlier in my agm's life I could plug in and could charge my 50% depleted agm battery at 13.6v for days and days. Until amps taper to near zero. But when i'd spin that voltage dial to 14.7v, it would then take several more hours, accepting 8 to 15 more amp hours, for amps to taper back to or below 0.5% of capacity, and only then indicating true full charge.

Ive done the same with a flooded battery mid life. 13.6v for held days and days, until amps tapered to very low levels.with no dc loads running, then dipped a temp compensated hydrometer and found cells at. 1.255 and less. It took several hours more at 14.7v to get them to 1.270 and then 45 minutes at 16.2v to get all but one stubborn cell to read a temp compensated 1.280.

This clearly indicated full charge was not possible to achieve at 13.6 no matter how long it was applied on a less than perfectly healthy battery.

Many maintainers will never exceed 13.6v and as such will not be able to fully charge a mid life battery. Ever.

Whether a human decides to consider it fully charged, or good enough, is subjective opinion. Ill trust tools properly used to collect actual data instead to form my opinion on state of charge, and state of health.

I suggest readers not assume their maintainer is capable of charging their battery fully. Not without verification. Meaning a good hydrometer on a flooded battery whose cells can be dipped, and on an agm, by the amperage accepted.at 14.4.to.14.7v. You cannot determine full charge on an agm when itis held at lesser voltages. You can guess of course. Or assume and hope.

Can't achieve 14.4 to 14.7v on demand in order to see how many amps the agm battery accepts.......
Then you cant determine true full charge of an agm. Period. Even if one has a coloumb counter and has returned 115%that which was removed.

Good luck trying to get a smart.charger or maintainer to seek and hold absorption voltage in order to check amperage, after it has already decided 13.6v or less is fine dandy.

Again any charging of a less than fully charged battery is better than no charging. But ideal is a true full charge, and this takes a long time at higher voltages and exponentially longer. If ever, at lesser voltages typical of maintainers.
Achieving Full charge takes longer and longer as the battery ages.
It ages faster and faster and loses.capacity and cranking amps faster and faster when it does not get truly fully charged, and this is not reversable, but rate of decline can be slowed. With true full charges. Achiever revularly thereafter.

If it does get truly fully charged regularly and never overdischarged, it can last a very long time. Even in south Texas.

Is it worth your effort? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But 'good enough' battery life is different for everybody.

Ideal/maximum battery life is achieved by true full charge achieved as often as possible, but assumptions of true full charge being achieved by products which claim to do just that, should be verified before they are trusted.

If chargers and vehicles had their voltages and durations of higher voltages optimized for achieving max battery life by achieving true full charge, we'd all be spending much less to replace batteries, and not concerned with the warranty length. As only the rare defective battery would fail within it.

What other warrantied product could the consumer intentionally or ignorantly destroy, and demand another for free, and get it?


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