Mercedes, Worth It?

[nthach]

Originally Posted by Kestas
For all the problems with reliability of Mercedes vehicles being traced to electrical issues, you'd think the Germans, with all their wisdom, would reverse engineer and copy what the Japanese are so good at, which is making reliable electrical components and connections. Japan developed this expertise over many decades with their electronics industry. Mercedes would be a top-notch vehicle if the Germans would just swallow their pride and copy the good work Japanese do.

Toyota and Advics(the braking businesses of Denso, Aisin and Sumitomo Electric) did a near perfect clone of the Sensotronic Braking System Mercedes and Bosch rolled out on the W211E-Class and the Maybach 52/62. The Toyota/Advics clone of SBS was required to make regenerative braking possible on the 2nd gen Prius and subsequent Toyota hybrids and it has been for the most part reliable save for a few special warranty "extensions" on the 2004-2015 Prius/2007-2009 Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX400h. Sensotronic has been a nightmare on the Mercedes side of things. Denso also cloned Bosch's PreSafe that was introduced on the W220 S-Class for the 2004-2006 Lexus LS430.

Mercedes is certainly a trailblazer when it comes to safety and many of those safety-related things they would roll out in a new S-Class does make its way to the hoi polloi eventually. After all, they were the first to make ABS/ESP, airbags and seatbelt pre-tensioners standard equipment between the 1980s-1990s. They also created the safety cage, side impact beams and crumple zones, pioneered the use of high strength/low alloy steel, and breakaway engine mounting.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by Wolf359


The E class used a fiber optics loop for their audio system. And if one of the devices in the chain like the CD player or the Teleaid system was defective, the entire system was down unless you used a bypass loop to bypass the defective system.

MOST isn't exclusively Mercedes thing - it's an open standard with the backing of the OEMs, their suppliers and the electronics companies that make the silicon and components to make it tick. The Europeans have embraced MOST, and I think GM, Hyundai and Mazda are starting to use it.

Toyota, Nissan and Honda are still using IEBus over copper.

https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Microchip-Next-Generation-Automotive-Infotainment.pdf

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Kestas
For all the problems with reliability of Mercedes vehicles being traced to electrical issues, you'd think the Germans, with all their wisdom, would reverse engineer and copy what the Japanese are so good at, which is making reliable electrical components and connections. Japan developed this expertise over many decades with their electronics industry. Mercedes would be a top-notch vehicle if the Germans would just swallow their pride and copy the good work Japanese do.

An alternative is just buy a Lexus and be done with it.
That's what made sense to me.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CincyDavid
I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.

I am not sure you understand "Duck effect" in economy.
Soon you will not have Korean TV, you will have Chinese. Koreans are going to move to something else.


Already happening in ship building - the Koreans have passed on mid price vessels (China scooped them up) - and build some of the biggest and best …

 

[DallasTexas]

On my 4th Benz all Diesels.
96 E class 300k miles gave it to nephew who drove to 345, basically thrashed it
2011 Sprinter passenger version 22k miles got hit while parked by a texting driver.
2011 GL350 Lemon buyback all kind of issues with DEF system.
Swore never again any vehicle with DEF got a one owner used E320 CDI with 72k miles. Now have almost 112k miles. The Sensotronic Braking System no issues yet but Mercedes extended the warranty to 25 years/unlimited miles. Very happy with the OM648 engine.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by ArrestMeRedZ
My wife wanted a used Merc, BMW or Volvo. Had the Merc picked out (used car lot), but couldn't get the seat properly adjusted for her frame. I didn't offer any advice, neither did the salesman. I thanked my guardian angels. Found a BMW 3 series. Private Seller wanted an extra couple of grand over PP value because he had recently put on new run flats. Yeah buddy, want an extra $50 cause you had the oil changed too? Probably still has the car 3 years later. Thanked those angels again. Settled on a Volvo S40 that was in decent shape with an honest seller.

In the almost a year we had the Volvo, had to replace the alternator (4 times the price of an equivalent US car part), and the electronics went completely ape when it got hot here in Vegas. It would run ok unless left out in the sun. I figured the interior heat was probably well above the design specs of the ECM. Did not enjoy working on the car, it was unnecessarily designed without ease of maintenance considered.

Told my wife if she gave up on the used Euro trash I'd buy her a new M6 Mazda 6 (anything she drives has to be a manual transmission, so it had to be a Mazda 6 or Accord). She agreed, and we got a new one. 2 trouble free years so far. Not near as much fun to drive around town as the Volvo, but a worthwhile tradeoff considering the maintenance requirements. I don't mind working on cars, but I don't like to have to do it on a regular basis because they break down.

I read an interesting book that blamed lack of maintainability, sufficient spare parts inventory, and interrupted production to make marginal improvements as a major reason the Germans lost WWII. If their current cars are an example of that mentality, I think the book makes some valid points.

You picked the absolute worst Volvo ever made (a joint venture car with Mitsubishi) and condemn all European cars on that basis?

That's like picking a Ford Pinto and saying all American cars suck, that's why we lost Vietnam.

Poor sample, poor analysis, poor choice in cars.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

No sir, I do not condem all European cars based upon one example. I merely cited one example I was personally familiar with. There are enough examples that indicate problems with German cars in particular are widespread, and you had better be a skilled mechanic, or someone with exceptional resourses before you consider one.
If you look at the German domestic market, for the most part, performance is valued above maintainability and longevity. If you just needed to get from point A to point B, you could take public transportation. If you wanted to make it an event, you took your high performance sedan at triple digit speeds on the autobahn. If you had to replace engines at well before 100k miles, that was something you accepted as a trade off for the performance you received.
IMO what makes European cars less suited for the American market is the skill level required for routine maintenance and repairs (we do not provide the necessary training starting in high school for auto technicians like they do in many parts of Europe), cost and availability of spare parts, and frequency of repairs/scheduled maintenance.
If you have the resources, knock yourself out and buy European. Just don't expect the cost to approach American or Japanese car levels.

 

[Alfred_B]

I often wonder - if the Mercs are such garbage, why are a lot of cities around the world using the E series as taxis?

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by Alfred_B
I often wonder - if the Mercs are such garbage, why are a lot of cities around the world using the E series as taxis?

That's because Mercedes are sold as "luxury" cars in the US/Canada/China. They do make more "stripped" down utilitarian models for taxi/police use in Europe/Africa/Russia.

A weird fact - Uber used the S-Class to evade rules on taxis when they first started up in Germany. The S-Class is a popular limo/chauffeur car in Europe and Asia. Instead of usurping cabbies like they usually do, Uber bought a fleet of S-Classes and let you ping one as usual.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by Alfred_B
I often wonder - if the Mercs are such garbage, why are a lot of cities around the world using the E series as taxis?
Cost of maintenance/repairs also varies around the world. In Germany, an MB is a domestic, so cost of fixing it would be like fixing a GM in the US.

 

[nthach]

And the Germans tend to have stricter rules on who can own a repair shop - you have be a meisterbrief(?), I think Trav is one.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
I often wonder - if the Mercs are such garbage, why are a lot of cities around the world using the E series as taxis?

That's because Mercedes are sold as "luxury" cars in the US/Canada/China. They do make more "stripped" down utilitarian models for taxi/police use in Europe/Africa/Russia.

A weird fact - Uber used the S-Class to evade rules on taxis when they first started up in Germany. The S-Class is a popular limo/chauffeur car in Europe and Asia. Instead of usurping cabbies like they usually do, Uber bought a fleet of S-Classes and let you ping one as usual.

Not true.
All components on all E classes are same. There is no "stripped" down version. They use same AC compressors, same ECU's, same suspensions etc. Only difference can be in engines, wether seats are leather or not, manual vs. automatic etc. In Europe, gas V6 engines are not popular for obvious reasons. In addition, diesels MB make are actually more complex than their gas brothers, but they are widely used as taxis.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by nthach
And the Germans tend to have stricter rules on who can own a repair shop - you have be a meisterbrief(?), I think Trav is one.

This is actually very important. Here what I saw is that mechanics in dealerships usually throw parts at the problem, and that is true for BMW or Toyota that I own now.
In BMW dealerships when they have too complex of an issue they open "Puma" case, which means mechanics and engineers from Germany take over problem solving.

 

[clinebarger]

That's because being a Mechanic is looked down upon in the USA, The only people pushed toward this trade usually do very poorly in school or otherwise have no other prospects, I'm speaking of skilled trades in general.

Dealerships/Manufactures don't provide near the training they used to.....Not that there is much use when you hire bottom of the barrel personnel. It doesn't help that mechanics are required to buy their own tools.....I've heard it's not like that it other developed countries?

 

[JunkdrawerDog]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
That's because being a Mechanic is looked down upon in the USA, The only people pushed toward this trade usually do very poorly in school or otherwise have no other prospects, I'm speaking of skilled trades in general.

Dealerships/Manufactures don't provide near the training they used to.....Not that there is much use when you hire bottom of the barrel personnel. It doesn't help that mechanics are required to buy their own tools.....I've heard it's not like that it other developed countries?


Lots of truth in this. Over the course of my working years I worked with quite a few industrial mechanics and technicians from Germany and the U.K. They do seem to be on another level. Come to work nicely dressed. Change into coveralls or a shop coat. Highly trained by the company they represent. Lots of pride in their work. You get the impression that what they do is a respected profession rather than something to fall back on. We would get our expensive, imported manufacturing equipment all jacked up and these guys would come bail us out. Then send us a HUGE bill!

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by JunkdrawerDog
Originally Posted by clinebarger
That's because being a Mechanic is looked down upon in the USA, The only people pushed toward this trade usually do very poorly in school or otherwise have no other prospects, I'm speaking of skilled trades in general.

Dealerships/Manufactures don't provide near the training they used to.....Not that there is much use when you hire bottom of the barrel personnel. It doesn't help that mechanics are required to buy their own tools.....I've heard it's not like that it other developed countries?


Lots of truth in this. Over the course of my working years I worked with quite a few industrial mechanics and technicians from Germany and the U.K. They do seem to be on another level. Come to work nicely dressed. Change into coveralls or a shop coat. Highly trained by the company they represent. Lots of pride in their work. You get the impression that what they do is a respected profession rather than something to fall back on. We would get our expensive, imported manufacturing equipment all jacked up and these guys would come bail us out. Then send us a HUGE bill!


Is that why this video on how to check the M272 balance shaft has the guy wearing MB overalls?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQArmxXsnM

Originally Posted by edyvw

Not true.
All components on all E classes are same. There is no "stripped" down version. They use same AC compressors, same ECU's, same suspensions etc. Only difference can be in engines, wether seats are leather or not, manual vs. automatic etc. In Europe, gas V6 engines are not popular for obvious reasons. In addition, diesels MB make are actually more complex than their gas brothers, but they are widely used as taxis.


I think when he means stripped down, just not as many options. You get bare bones over there. Here stuff like the P1 package which might have Sirius, heated seats, navigation, etc would be missing. Basically you strip out all the options and they have engines in Europe that aren't in the US like 2 liter and sub 2 liter engines when the US may have gotten 3.5 and up. And things like whether it has a moonroof as standard or panorama as an option is probably moonroof or no moonroof. That probably really cuts the price down once all the added options and other standard items in the US are stripped out. I haven't really checked, but maybe they do the same thing over there, release the base model early over there and then after it's proven for a year bring it over here. Some US manufacturers do it too, but sometimes that still doesn't work.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
That's because being a Mechanic is looked down upon in the USA, The only people pushed toward this trade usually do very poorly in school or otherwise have no other prospects, I'm speaking of skilled trades in general.

Dealerships/Manufactures don't provide near the training they used to.....Not that there is much use when you hire bottom of the barrel personnel. It doesn't help that mechanics are required to buy their own tools.....I've heard it's not like that it other developed countries?


In Silicon Valley, there is a top Community College, De Anza College in Cupertino.
De Anza was rated as one of the top 5 JCs in the nation.
They have a 2 year Mechanics program that is impacted and highly regarded.
Long waiting list to get in...

This is in the land of Computer Science. De Anza is a great school.
We need more schools like this. Not everyone is gonna be a lowly programmer like me.
In fact, I am in favor of making JCs tuition free for those who choose to improve their lives through education like this.
All good.

 

[edyvw]

Quote

I think when he means stripped down, just not as many options. You get bare bones over there. Here stuff like the P1 package which might have Sirius, heated seats, navigation, etc would be missing. Basically you strip out all the options and they have engines in Europe that aren't in the US like 2 liter and sub 2 liter engines when the US may have gotten 3.5 and up. And things like whether it has a moonroof as standard or panorama as an option is probably moonroof or no moonroof. That probably really cuts the price down once all the added options and other standard items in the US are stripped out. I haven't really checked, but maybe they do the same thing over there, release the base model early over there and then after it's proven for a year bring it over here. Some US manufacturers do it too, but sometimes that still doesn't work.

Mercedes E class in Europe comes with heated seats, cooled seats etc. Taxi specimens might have special versions, but still argument does not make sense as their engines are more complex. No taxi is running on naturally aspirated engines anymore. They all have complex diesels in them. Not to mention that small gassers are also equipped with turbo's. In theory, NA V6 or V8 from 10 years ago on the US market should be more reliable. It is only recent trend that MB is bringing all turbo fleet here.

 

[Wolf359]

I don't think you fully understood what I said. I didn't say those options weren't available, just that cars might not come with them. That's how they keep the price of the car down. It's like over here where they advertised a super low price, but they only order one car. Even here you find cars that don't have heated seats. Most cars sold had the P1 package but some dealers just ordered one car without that package just so they could advertise the low price and do one of those bait and switch tactics. I do seem them once in a while when people in Europe end up posting their vin and you can run their vin through the vin decoder I mentioned earlier and you realize that their car basically has none of the options you would normally see here in the US. I've seen mentions of a 180, 200 or 220 models in Europe, we don't get anything like that here those smaller engines just aren't exported to the US.

 

[edyvw]

Have you seen MB in the last 10 years in Europe? I yet to see E class in Europe without heated or cooled seats, GPS etc. On top of that, 95% of them are equipped with CDI engines that have turbo(s), DPF's, SCR's, etc. My point is, when it comes to reliability, European versions are actually more complex and should be less reliable, yet, they make easily 500k km+ on those CDI engines.