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Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP #5241418 10/16/19 01:32 PM
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andreigbs Offline OP
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Gents,

In search of a Euro oil for my Bluetec OM651, I came across the above 3 flavors of Ravenol.

Besides the price and specs (229.51/.52), can anyone help shed some light on what would be the advantage of the "Racing" formula?

I haven't tried Ravenol yet, but if there's some magic elixir in the Racing version to improve longevity and performance in my Bluetec, I would surely be interested.

Currently at 106,xxx miles and no issues (DPF or otherwise) to report with current oil choice (yes, I read the whole 12-pg LM overrated thread, and that's what I've been using).

Thoughts please?


2014 MB GLK250 BT // 106,xxx miles // 34 MPG // LM TopTec 4605 5w30
2014 VW Jetta TDI // 40,xxx miles // 38 MPG // LM Longlife III 5w30
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241422 10/16/19 01:36 PM
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Which one meets the specs for your engine? If all of them, pick based on your next criteria... if they all meet the specs and one is 3x the cost of the other, there's no real way to justify the increased cost IMO unless you really just want to have a "racing" oil. I'd use Ravenol's oil finder and go with that recommendation...

Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241431 10/16/19 01:44 PM
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andreigbs Offline OP
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Which one meets the specs for your engine?

They all meet either 229.51 or 229.52 which are spec'd for my DPF-equipped diesel.

Quote
no real way to justify the increased cost IMO unless you really just want to have a "racing" oil

Therein lies my inquiry: what else besides the label makes the REP a "racing" oil?

Quote
I'd use Ravenol's oil finder and go with that recommendation

Doing so omits the Racing oil altogether frown


2014 MB GLK250 BT // 106,xxx miles // 34 MPG // LM TopTec 4605 5w30
2014 VW Jetta TDI // 40,xxx miles // 38 MPG // LM Longlife III 5w30
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241433 10/16/19 01:46 PM
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VMS is the worst one in that list, no USVO or tungsten, and the pourpoint indicates lower quality base oil.

REP and VMP are full PAO and USVO, and REP has tungsten which makes it slightly different and possibly better. Both have great pourpoints due to the PAO.

My pick is REP if you want the best of the three. VMP is almost as good.


2019 VW Tiguan S 4Motion, Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20, VW Mann oil filter
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241443 10/16/19 01:49 PM
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Just about any 229.51/52 oil can be used in "racing" depending on the application. Very tough spec. I think "Racing" is put on REP's label as Ravenol's way of saying its their best effort. The tungsten in REP might lower friction horsepower losses more than the other oils, making it possibly more suitable for racing, reducing heat and freeing up more power a bit.

Last edited by paoester; 10/16/19 01:52 PM.

2019 VW Tiguan S 4Motion, Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20, VW Mann oil filter
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241453 10/16/19 01:53 PM
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REP and VMP are full PAO and USVO, and REP has tungsten which makes it slightly different and possibly better. Both have great pourpoints due to the PAO.

Thanks, this is the kind of info I need.

Could you elaborate on the tungsten and why it may be better? Answered above, thanks paoester.
Agreed on pourpoints due to PAO.

I will admit, it's pricey stuff when I can easily get Pennzoil Euro LX 5w30 or Valvoline MST Synpower 5w30 much cheaper ($5.39/qt for the MST locally).

Opinions on whether the REP flavor would result in any meaningful, noticeable difference in my application vs the two domestics above?

Edit: found this on tungsten. Interesting stuff, I wonder where might one get this unobtainium from? Found the answer to this as well, now for long reading...

Last edited by andreigbs; 10/16/19 02:13 PM.

2014 MB GLK250 BT // 106,xxx miles // 34 MPG // LM TopTec 4605 5w30
2014 VW Jetta TDI // 40,xxx miles // 38 MPG // LM Longlife III 5w30
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241474 10/16/19 02:14 PM
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Tungsten acts a lot like moly (reduces friction, both bond with sulphur in various compounds). Most oil makers skip the tungsten and just use moly. I'm not sure which is better. Ravenol has both tungsten and moly, maybe to reduce friction more than just the typical moly alone. Google terms are: WS2 oil additive
and some aftermarket additves of questionable value pop up. Ravenol carefully blends their oils which is better than having 3rd party additives poured in.


2019 VW Tiguan S 4Motion, Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20, VW Mann oil filter
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241479 10/16/19 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by andreigbs
Opinions on whether the REP flavor would result in any meaningful, noticeable difference in my application vs the two domestics above?


Not trying to rain on your parade by any means, because you'll obviously do whatever suits you anyways. But to save you lots of time and effort, to paraphrase a good bit of "simple answer" from dnewton3, no, there is no magical oil that will result in any meaningful, noticeable difference between others.

A given engine type will have a range of "normal" wear, and even further one specific engine (yours in this case) will have its own specific wear patterns. The most important thing to do is actually change your oil on a reasonable schedule; your engine will occasionally see small blips and variance in wear metals in a UOA, but when trended over a period of time, your engine is almost assuredly going to fall into line with the universal averages for that engine type. Short OCIs, boutique oils, etc etc all play a very very small part in overall wear. Use good filtration and change the oil when recommended and that's about 99% of all you can do to maximize the life of any given ICE. It has also been stated, sometimes not fervently enough, that an engine's air filter is actually the best oil filter, since dirt ingress through the intake tract is much more damaging than things normally inside your engine. So don't skimp out on a good air filter and tight intake tract!

The inherent engine design plays an infinitely more weighty part in its lifetime than what oil you use.

Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241485 10/16/19 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by andreigbs
Opinions on whether the REP flavor would result in any meaningful, noticeable difference in my application vs the two domestics above?.

Probably not noticeable.
A full-PAO oil like REP should leave less piston deposits over time which is something nobody would notice unless the rings start sticking at well over 200,000 miles.
The WS2 (tungsten) and molyDTC in REP is expected to protect bearings a small amount better, very possibly. I can't be sure since Ravenol's other components affect that result too.


2019 VW Tiguan S 4Motion, Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20, VW Mann oil filter
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241493 10/16/19 02:26 PM
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welcome to BITOG!

The whole point of a spec like MB 229.51/229.52 is that, as long as the vehicle is being operated as designed, any differences among oils that meet it will be minor at best. Given that all the oils you've mentioned meet the spec your car calls for, you can be sure your engine won't care which one you run.

In other words, it might be true that one of those Ravenol oils might be better than your other options, but it's HIGHLY unlikely that the difference will be big enough to be noticeable -- let alone worth the massive price difference vs. the locally available options.

On some of the specific points brought up in this thread: A better pour point could be due to more PAO content, or it could be due to pour point depressant additives. I'm pretty sure esters tend to have higher pour points; that'd suggest that a lower pour point might also indicate less ester content. Either way, more PAO doesn't necessarily mean it's a better oil.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #5241498 10/16/19 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
A given engine type will have a range of "normal" wear, and even further one specific engine (yours in this case) will have its own specific wear patterns. The most important thing to do is actually change your oil on a reasonable schedule; your engine will occasionally see small blips and variance in wear metals in a UOA, but when trended over a period of time, your engine is almost assuredly going to fall into line with the universal averages for that engine type. Short OCIs, boutique oils, etc etc all play a very very small part in overall wear. Use good filtration and change the oil when recommended and that's about 99% of all you can do to maximize the life of any given ICE. It has also been stated, sometimes not fervently enough, that an engine's air filter is actually the best oil filter, since dirt ingress through the intake tract is much more damaging than things normally inside your engine. So don't skimp out on a good air filter and tight intake tract!

The inherent engine design plays an infinitely more weighty part in its lifetime than what oil you use.

approved


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241567 10/16/19 03:47 PM
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'16 Tiguan TSI Ravenol VST 5W40
'15 VW Golf TDI Ravenol VMP 5W30
'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI VMP 5W30
'14 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.6 Red Line Blue Label 5W20
'64 Plymouth Fury440 Red Line Blue Label 10W40
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241673 10/16/19 05:56 PM
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andreigbs Offline OP
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Not trying to rain on your parade by any means, because you'll obviously do whatever suits you anyways.

No rain in the forecast, you're good there smile And I'm always up for enlightened debate using facts and logic. Saving a buck is great, but maintaining expensive equipment takes precedence.

Quote
Given that all the oils you've mentioned meet the spec your car calls for, you can be sure your engine won't care which one you run.

Quite possibly, however there is a difference even between those two specs otherwise MB wouldn't have bothered with them. As I understand it, the 229.52 supersedes 229.51 and results in increased fuel economy. Or at least that's partly the goal, besides DPF protection. But to your point, if both specs cost the same (but they don't...) then I'd run the one that nets me extra fuel economy without sacrificing engine internals protection.

Quote
an engine's air filter is actually the best oil filter

Agreed! And once I replace my air filters, I don't touch them for at least the recommended interval. I do all my own maintenance, so no Iffy Lube gorillas will be touching it (apologies to gorillas everywhere).

Quote
Has ester along with approval for your spec

Tasty! Hadn't seen that one, and Blauparts doesn't stock it anymore. Although I do wonder what, if any, fuel economy penalty there may be between the Xw30 vs Xw40.

Thank you gents, great info just as I was expecting to receive. I think for my next OCI, I will give the Ravenol REP a try. My climate makes the 5w30 viscosity the most ideal choice.

Any other opinions and thoughts are welcome.

Last edited by andreigbs; 10/16/19 05:57 PM.

2014 MB GLK250 BT // 106,xxx miles // 34 MPG // LM TopTec 4605 5w30
2014 VW Jetta TDI // 40,xxx miles // 38 MPG // LM Longlife III 5w30
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241716 10/16/19 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by andreigbs
Quite possibly, however there is a difference even between those two specs otherwise MB wouldn't have bothered with them. As I understand it, the 229.52 supersedes 229.51 and results in increased fuel economy. Or at least that's partly the goal, besides DPF protection. But to your point, if both specs cost the same (but they don't...) then I'd run the one that nets me extra fuel economy without sacrificing engine internals protection.
https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html informs us 229.51 isn't much different than 229.52. The .52 does give better anti-oxidation performance, cool that, and it does provide better fuel economy while being about the same in HTHS as 229.51, which means the .52 must use more friction reducers.
229.51 was introduced around 2009 or before, not sure when exactly, while 229.52 was created in 2012 and revised in 2016. 229.51 was also updated in 2016 so Mercedes considers it current for some engines and not superseded yet. 229.52 is better though.

Notice RUP 5w40 is too thick (HTHS 3.9) to pass 229.52's friction reduction requirements, while REP 5w30 achieves 229.52 with a lower HTHS 3.7 and a load of tungsten & moly.
Yeah REP wins, even for racing.


2019 VW Tiguan S 4Motion, Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20, VW Mann oil filter
Re: Ravenol 5w30 REP vs VMS vs VMP [Re: andreigbs] #5241727 10/16/19 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by andreigbs
Gents,

In search of a Euro oil for my Bluetec OM651, I came across the above 3 flavors of Ravenol.

Besides the price and specs (229.51/.52), can anyone help shed some light on what would be the advantage of the "Racing" formula?

I haven't tried Ravenol yet, but if there's some magic elixir in the Racing version to improve longevity and performance in my Bluetec, I would surely be interested.

Currently at 106,xxx miles and no issues (DPF or otherwise) to report with current oil choice (yes, I read the whole 12-pg LM overrated thread, and that's what I've been using).

Thoughts please?













I also looked at the Ravenol REP 5W30. Based on the product data sheet data given, my best guess was REP was considered slightly better product than VMP. (I know the difference is splitting hairs). I noted the REP had the slightly higher flashpoint. In addition, I noted that 5W30 REP has a HTHS of 3.7. To my knowledge, this is the highest HTHS you will find for a 5W30.

In my vehicle, GM recommends that I use a 5W30 Dexos2 motor oil - which REP, has. In my case, other diesel engines, using 5W30 from the same manufacturer (VM Motori) had numerous engine failures under heavy towing conditions. (Ram EcoDiesel, I am talking to you). Ram's current motor oil recommendation is to use a 5W40 motor oil. Hopefully, I have a greater safety margin here under severe conditions, while still meeting the 5W30 Dexos2 requirement. As the old saying goes, changing engine oil, is a lot cheaper than replacing diesel engine parts.

As a result, I bought 3 - 5L jugs for $111 for my 2016 Chevy Colorado Pickup (2.8L VM Motori diesel engine). When that is used up, I will go back to using Mobil 1 Formula ESP 5W30. Which has a 254C Flash point, 3.58 HTHS and Dexos2 approvals.

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