Mercedes, Worth It?

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by SLO_Town
Some OEM tires are indeed different from their non-OEM counterparts. This is not unusual. See Tirerack website. For example, our 2016 VW Passat VR6. Compare the specs of the OEM Bridgestone 235/45-18 RE97AS to the non-OEM version.
While I have seen what you describe in the past, in your case there are two tires listed on Tire Rack for your car and the specifications are different--namely the UTQG rating is 480AA for one tire and 400AA for the other.

In the case of the Continentals, there is only one ContiSportContact 5 SSR listed for the MB C300 with 19" wheels and I compared the specifications of those tires against the OEM tires on the car and they were exactly the same down to the Mercedes, MOExtended Mobility on both tires. I bought Pirelli's instead of the Continentals, but in the end, it is the constant alignment (every 10K) that is needed to prevent them from wearing. This is not something I have ever had to do on any car and certainly none of the many $50K+ I have owned and is not "well engineered" or the best "design" for cars like this.



ContiSportContact 5 SSR are SOFT ( UTQG rating is 280AA or worse). As I mentioned early my wife only got about 15k miles on hers so our experiences match. It's not an alignment issue (Costco tech tried to say I needed an alignment with regards to the rears, but his eyes glazed over when I mentioned negative camber). Alignment only covers uneven wear.

Mine was an alignment issue and it was the same on my AMG. Luckily, I kicked the AMG to the curb before replacing the tires.

#NeverAgain

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by edyvw
Classic BITOG. No one owned it, they all heard from cousin's friend boyfriend about it.
Owning more then 30 cars, only two did not want to start in the morning:
1998 Mazda Millenia and last week, 2015 Toyota Sienna.

So.... The fact there is information literally everywhere, (including a plethora right in this thread), on how people have been steered away from this brand because of constant problems, coupled to outrageous repair and maintenance costs, means nothing. Because it's foolish to learn from someone else's mistakes.

Instead, we should ascertain that in reality they are most likely fine, because of the 30+ cars you have owned, the only 2 that you couldn't manage to wake up in the morning were not manufactured by Mercedes.

Sure, people have problems with all cars. Most expensive and absolutely worst car to maintain in my stable is Land Cruiser I own in Europe. I needed vehicle with true off road capabilities and that thing so far costed me in total like 10 European cars together.
However, problem is that according to people here that is impossible, because, Toyota....


Yeah, they're a little insane about the prices. There are people here who report getting 8k worth of worth done at a dealer for Honda/Toyotas. There's that guy that spent 28k rebuilding an engine on a Subaru. Any car is expensive at the dealer.

 

[Al]

I know a lady who is a trophy wife. Her elder husband bought her a Mercedes that resembles a Hummer. I presume he felt it was worth the $$$$$$$

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Al
I know a lady who is a trophy wife. Her elder husband bought her a Mercedes that resembles a Hummer. I presume he felt it was worth the $$$$$$$


That's either the GLS or a G class. The G class is actually worth it. Even the old ones are still worth way more than an S class. You can pick up a 2013 S class in the 20-25k range or even less. You'd have to go to early 2000 in order to get a G class at that price.

 

[fdcg27]

I'll offer my opinion based upon having owned four of these cars from the days when they were rather plain inside and out and if you wanted to open the sunroof you pulled a handle down, turned it a quarter turn and then slid the panel back. Some of these cars even lacked (gasp) power windows although all had vacuum operated power door locks.
These were cars engineered and built with uncompromising quality. Ride over really bad road surfaces was very good and in terms of handling, you'd have to work really hard to get yourself in trouble.
These cars were also very reliable and durable, since that's part of what you paid for in a W123 diesel. You could use such a car hard for a decade with little more than oil changes, fuel filters, brakes and tires. The interior would still look very good with no more than occasional cleaning as would the car's paint.
These cars weren't cheap new as one might expect from the cost that must have gone into them.
The Mercedes cars of today are not the same. Mercedes chases what one poster calls "options" but seems to have neglected the overall excellence of their earlier cars.
Mercedes lost its brand identity sometime around twenty years ago and you can see this clearly in how badly some of these newer cars hold up inside and out.
I guess that people value flash over function these days and that current sales numbers prove that to be a good mode for Mercedes.

 

[nthach]

Pass. The CLA/GLA is a weird love child between Nissan and Daimler. I've never been impressed by them and I feel it's an attempt to go downmarket to compete against Lexus(CT200h/UX series which is a Prius or C-HR mechanically), the Audi A3 and Mini. Everytime I've been in a CLA, I get carsick.


There was a point in time when buying Mercedes really meant the Best or Nothing, and while they were a bit cold on the inside and mechanically conservative(and Toyota used those points against Mercedes when the Lexus LS400 was in utero and introduced) they were well made and had presence on the road. The older W123/W124/W126 cars and their predecessors were built at a time with Daimler spared very little. Lexus was really a thorn in Mercedes' side in the 1990s - and I felt that and the Chrysler merger marked the decline of Mercedes. The G-Wagen, Sprinter and the S-Class I feel are the cars that stick to the Mercedes ethos nowadays.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
The Mercedes cars of today are not the same. Mercedes chases what one poster calls "options" but seems to have neglected the overall excellence of their earlier cars.
Mercedes lost its brand identity sometime around twenty years ago and you can see this clearly in how badly some of these newer cars hold up inside and out.
I guess that people value flash over function these days and that current sales numbers prove that to be a good mode for Mercedes.


Having two different generations of the car you can see how MB got better and worse. Some of the nicer features in the W211 like the open assist they got rid of in the W212. Basically when you unlock the doors, the doors pop open a little so it's easier to open. They also got rid of the little touches like the business card holder in the dash. But with any model, they take some stuff away and add more stuff. Twenty years ago would have been the merger with Chrysler. QC was really bad back then, since they got rid of them, mechanically I'd say the W212 is better than the W211, that's either the march of time where things get better or their focus on QC has improved. Engine problems like the balance shaft and transmission problems like the conductor plate aren't issues in the newer models. In terms of holding up, harder to say as you don't see too many used as daily drivers so the only ones you see with really high miles are the ones used as limos.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
I'll offer my opinion based upon having owned four of these cars from the days when they were rather plain inside and out and if you wanted to open the sunroof you pulled a handle down, turned it a quarter turn and then slid the panel back. Some of these cars even lacked (gasp) power windows although all had vacuum operated power door locks.
These were cars engineered and built with uncompromising quality. Ride over really bad road surfaces was very good and in terms of handling, you'd have to work really hard to get yourself in trouble.
These cars were also very reliable and durable, since that's part of what you paid for in a W123 diesel. You could use such a car hard for a decade with little more than oil changes, fuel filters, brakes and tires. The interior would still look very good with no more than occasional cleaning as would the car's paint.
These cars weren't cheap new as one might expect from the cost that must have gone into them.
The Mercedes cars of today are not the same. Mercedes chases what one poster calls "options" but seems to have neglected the overall excellence of their earlier cars.
Mercedes lost its brand identity sometime around twenty years ago and you can see this clearly in how badly some of these newer cars hold up inside and out.
I guess that people value flash over function these days and that current sales numbers prove that to be a good mode for Mercedes.


I blame the German government. In the 1980's/1990's they passed new regulations regarding the lifecycle of automotive parts. It was later codified in the EU as "EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000." Of course other nations have adopted the same regulations and globalization essentially demanded it.
LINK


Thankfully the germans still have the highest quality in terms paint, corrosion resistance.

 

[CincyDavid]

I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by CincyDavid
A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.


I can agree with this. Newer MBs, BMWs, and Audis are all trying to out-do each other for the same thing. Just like all season tires, a car that tries to do everything usually doesn't do it all really well. Driving a newer MB, BMW or Audi nothing stands out to me from each brand unless you go for something specific like an AMG, M car, or S model which you will pay dearly for.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by CincyDavid
I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.


We have Asian TV's at home because they out-cheaped other marques. Like with computers where Taiwanese brands like ASUS took advantage of cheap Chinese labour while US brands like SuperMicro didn't. Apple and Cisco, both electronics giants, figured out how to capitalize on Asian outsourcing quite early on. I've got some vintage German audio gear and it is exceptionally well made. My current power amplifier is made a couple of kilometres from me here in Canada. Of course all of these products cost massively more than my Samsung SmartTV, and that's the issue. Intel and AMD aren't Asian companies, but they have a manufacturing presence there for the same reason everyone else does.

German electronics aren't inherently any better or worse than Japanese ones. Both are made to suit a price-point, in this case, that is the one of the vehicle they are fitted to. The electronics were quite good on my '01 M5 for example and I've certainly not been blown away by my experience with infotainment in Toyota vehicles despite this fabled Asian prowess

There are plenty of world-class German electronics operations, like Siemens and Bosch for example.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

German electronics aren't inherently any better or worse than Japanese ones. Both are made to suit a price-point, in this case, that is the one of the vehicle they are fitted to. The electronics were quite good on my '01 M5 for example and I've certainly not been blown away by my experience with infotainment in Toyota vehicles despite this fabled Asian prowess

There are plenty of world-class German electronics operations, like Siemens and Bosch for example.

Now that Samsung owns Harman International who is one of the predominant audio supplier to the OEMs besides Panasonic, Pioneer, Denso, Alpine and Clarion(who was recently bought out by Fareucia, a French interiors supplier) and Toyota just caved into Apple/Google/Amazon expect that to change. BlackBerry makes the RTOS that makes these all tick, although Toyota did jump on the Automotive Linux bandwagon.

The German and Japanese have differing theories when it comes to design - but European electronics are known to be delicate. However, Bosch and Siemens electronics on older German cars seemed to be well-built and an electrical system on a current German car should live a decently long life as long as some dingbat doesn't jumpstart the car or a rat doesn't chew out the wiring.

Siemens and Bosch aren't what they used to be. Siemens merged the automotive arm with VDO and sold it to Conti a few years later. Supposedly, it was at the urging of VW. Siemen's silicon unit was spun off as Infineon, who kinda exists - Intel and Apple bought out the wireless arm and their memory division is no more. Bosch cheaped out a little on the aftermarket side but they now do business with all the automakers. Siemens still rules in industrial automation and transport. Bosch is starting to diversify away from cars.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by CincyDavid
I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.

I am not sure you understand "Duck effect" in economy.
Soon you will not have Korean TV, you will have Chinese. Koreans are going to move to something else.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by CincyDavid
I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.


Rust was bad in the early models. The main problem is that people are going by past history. If you did that, people would never buy a Hyundai because they were one of the worst when they came out. With the W211, Mercedes went to a lot of aluminum so rusting isn't an issue it used to be in the past. So you have aluminum hoods, trunks, fenders etc. Plus there's a ton of plastic covers covering the under body.

Research the car you're going to buy, not the car models made 20 years ago.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by CincyDavid
I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.


Rust was bad in the early models. The main problem is that people are going by past history. If you did that, people would never buy a Hyundai because they were one of the worst when they came out. With the W211, Mercedes went to a lot of aluminum so rusting isn't an issue it used to be in the past. So you have aluminum hoods, trunks, fenders etc. Plus there's a ton of plastic covers covering the under body.

Research the car you're going to buy, not the car models made 20 years ago.


The W124 was made of galvanized steel so rust was never a problem with it.
It is with later and more cheaply made MB cars.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by CincyDavid
I don't know about the whole corrosion resistance thing...spring perches rusting and falling off E Class cars, rusty doors on early 2000s S Class cars, etc. My sense is that MB just didn't react well to competition from Lexus. There's a reason we have Asian TVs at home, not German...Asians make better electronics. A nice W124 is an amazing car, newer MB and BMW products leave me cold.


Rust was bad in the early models. The main problem is that people are going by past history. If you did that, people would never buy a Hyundai because they were one of the worst when they came out. With the W211, Mercedes went to a lot of aluminum so rusting isn't an issue it used to be in the past. So you have aluminum hoods, trunks, fenders etc. Plus there's a ton of plastic covers covering the under body.

Research the car you're going to buy, not the car models made 20 years ago.


The W124 was made of galvanized steel so rust was never a problem with it.
It is with later and more cheaply made MB cars.

^This.
Certain 1990's E and C class had rust issues. Inside of doors etc. Why some had is mystery as I was driven in and drove some taxi specimen's with 200 and 220cdi engines that had well pass 700-800k km and still looked better inside than my current Toyota Sienna.
So, I would not say they are cheaply built, but that they had issues around it, yes.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by fdcg27

The W124 was made of galvanized steel so rust was never a problem with it.
It is with later and more cheaply made MB cars.

I've seen rusted older Mercedes - but that was caused by neglect. Mercedes was one of the first automakers to use an e-Coat and a through treatment of the underbody, engine bay and all body cavities with wax or undercoating. They along with VW were the first to switch over to waterborne paint - and they had much better luck than the American conversions. Although, PPG and DuPont provided the OEM level coatings.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by OVERKILL

German electronics aren't inherently any better or worse than Japanese ones. Both are made to suit a price-point, in this case, that is the one of the vehicle they are fitted to. The electronics were quite good on my '01 M5 for example and I've certainly not been blown away by my experience with infotainment in Toyota vehicles despite this fabled Asian prowess

There are plenty of world-class German electronics operations, like Siemens and Bosch for example.

Now that Samsung owns Harman International who is one of the predominant audio supplier to the OEMs besides Panasonic, Pioneer, Denso, Alpine and Clarion(who was recently bought out by Fareucia, a French interiors supplier) and Toyota just caved into Apple/Google/Amazon expect that to change. BlackBerry makes the RTOS that makes these all tick, although Toyota did jump on the Automotive Linux bandwagon.

The German and Japanese have differing theories when it comes to design - but European electronics are known to be delicate. However, Bosch and Siemens electronics on older German cars seemed to be well-built and an electrical system on a current German car should live a decently long life as long as some dingbat doesn't jumpstart the car or a rat doesn't chew out the wiring.

Siemens and Bosch aren't what they used to be. Siemens merged the automotive arm with VDO and sold it to Conti a few years later. Supposedly, it was at the urging of VW. Siemen's silicon unit was spun off as Infineon, who kinda exists - Intel and Apple bought out the wireless arm and their memory division is no more. Bosch cheaped out a little on the aftermarket side but they now do business with all the automakers. Siemens still rules in industrial automation and transport. Bosch is starting to diversify away from cars.


A little more detailed than I was going to get into, but yeah

These companies diversify and chase profit, which often involves them divesting themselves of divisions that perhaps compete in more crowded, highly competitive spaces that makes being profitable difficult. I expect we may see a Taiwanese or Chinese takeover of a well-known brand in this segment as current trends persist. The Chinese and Indians have already acquired some prestigious marques, pursuing the suppliers for components only makes sense.

 

[Kestas]

For all the problems with reliability of Mercedes vehicles being traced to electrical issues, you'd think the Germans, with all their wisdom, would reverse engineer and copy what the Japanese are so good at, which is making reliable electrical components and connections. Japan developed this expertise over many decades with their electronics industry. Mercedes would be a top-notch vehicle if the Germans would just swallow their pride and copy the good work Japanese do.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Kestas
For all the problems with reliability of Mercedes vehicles being traced to electrical issues, you'd think the Germans, with all their wisdom, would reverse engineer and copy what the Japanese are so good at, which is making reliable electrical components and connections. Japan developed this expertise over many decades with their electronics industry. Mercedes would be a top-notch vehicle if the Germans would just swallow their pride and copy the good work Japanese do.


The E class used a fiber optics loop for their audio system. And if one of the devices in the chain like the CD player or the Teleaid system was defective, the entire system was down unless you used a bypass loop to bypass the defective system. Sometimes I think they do it on purpose just to generate some revenue for the service department. Just look at the procedure now to change the transmission fluid, you fill it up at a certain temperature and there isn't even a dipstick tube.