Redline MTL in Nissan

[Spddm0n]

Hey MolaKule -

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I don't know what AW or friction modifier additives might be in the CO company products might have in them. The company is called Colorado Petroleum. They make a line of conventional products called "Rugged". The Rugged Euro 75W90 is the product I was looking at. They also have a line of synthetics called "Silver State", though it looks like those are only motor oil.

How do you know your Frontier "speced" at 10.5 @100C? Is that info available somewhere from Nissan? Or, did you analyze the OEM Nissan fluid? That info would be very helpful to know. I'm now trying to choose a gear oil for my front/rear DIFFs (LSD in the rear) and the "80W-90" oils are giving me the same issue - huge variance in the viscosity across them. I'm also super confused about what has happened in the market of these gear oils over the past 15 years. Back in the day, you just bought a 75W-90 GL4 for the trans, a 75W-90 or 80W-90 for the front DIFF and and the same with LSD additive in it already for the rear.

Now, it seams like it's really hard to find a conventional one at all. It appears the synthetics have the LSD friction modifier "in them already", however people are saying it's not enough for LSD DIFF's anyway and should only be used to "top off" the DIFFs if necessary. Plus, it makes me wonder if the FRONT DIFFs are better suited without those additives in them. Nobody seems to be asking that question either.

I'm hoping to choose a DIFF oil that can be applied to both the FRONT and REAR DIFF's on all my Xterras/Frontiers, as I plan to build many more of them (I have a small business restoring them). After looking through the various data sheets on the various 80W-90's, I'm seeing kinematic viscosity all over the map.

I'd love to know what Nissan "speced" these transmissions and differentials at for their respective oils. I noticed the 2000-2001 Factory Service Manual for the Nissan Xterra and Frontier, they had a footnote suggesting the "Standard Differential Gear" could also apply the SAE Viscosity Graph to adjust for geographic climate /temperature, suggesting the colder temp areas could even use a 75W-90 in the DIIFs. I'm guessing the "Standard Gear Differentials" are the non-LSD DIFFs, which could mean all the front DIFFs and any non-LSD rear DIFFs (if there were any). It's also known that the 200-2001 Xterras/Frontier rear DIFFs had LSD with much higher break-away-torque figures (138-180 lb-ft), compared with the 2002+ (at 29-43 lb-ft). Perhaps that's why the manual suggested you could get away with the 75W-90 in the cold??

It seems the more I investigate this, the more I have questions.

 

[MolaKule]

How do I know the Nissan MTF had a 10.5cSt fluid? I analyzed both the FF fill and a quart of Nissan MTF replacement fluid.

In fact, I didn't like the way it performed so I formulated by own and that began my developing a whole line of gear lubes and engine oils and other lubes.

NOTE: This list is only a "suggested" list of MTFs. It is not an endorsement of any one fluid, nor is it implied that any one fluid will cure problems in MTs that have design problems or those that have excessive wear.

Note: C, D and E are often considered popularly as "synchromesh" fluids.

C. The next higher viscosity MTL group is in the 8.0 cSt to 8.9 cSt Range would be:

1. Castrol Syntrans V FE (8.0cSt)
2. Redline DCTF Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid (8.1 cSt)
3. BG Synchroshift II (8.2 cSt)
4. RAVENOL PSA (8.9 cSt)

D. The next higher viscosity MTL group in the 9.0 to 9.5 cSt range is (SAE 75W80):

1. Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0 cSt
2. Valvoline MTF Part Number 811095 9.2 cSt
3. Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt
4. RAVENOL SSG 9.5 cSt


E. The next group of MTL's are in the 9.6 to 10.X cSt range (SAE 75W80):

1. Redline MTL 75W80
2. Amsoil MTF (9.7 cSt)
3. GM Synchromesh's
4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)
6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF
7. Motylgear 75W-80

Your second question was about differential lubes.

In my 2012 Frontier I use a 75w110 in the rear differential and a 75W90 in the front differential, all synthetic.

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

I'm disappointed because I had wanted to try BG Synchro Shift II in my Mazda6 - which calls for 75W-80 lubricant. It appears to be one of the lightest MTL's out there - and is below 75W-80 viscosity.

I would go for the Redline MTL, but I have heard a number of complaints suggesting that Redline MTL tends to have additives that drop out of suspension, cause sludge (of sorts) - and then net liquid lubricant left over is deficient in wear protection.

 

[Spddm0n]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
How do I know the Nissan MTF had a 10.5cSt fluid? I analyzed both the FF fill and a quart of Nissan MTF replacement fluid.

In fact, I didn't like the way it performed so I formulated by own and that began my developing a whole line of gear lubes and engine oils and other lubes.

Wow! That's really cool! That was such a good idea to do that! both the FF and a new quart of the replacement Nissan MTL. Nice going! I wonder if I could get me hands on a factory Toyota MR2 Turbo manual trans fluid. I know it was flawless at the time I had it 20 years ago, but there was a lot of complaint about synchro wear over time and I wonder if it was too thin?

Who did you have actually make the oils you developed? I ran across a place called Warren Performance Products (Warren Distribution) in Nebraska that appears to make a lot of private label oils. I was trying to find data sheets on their King Lube brands (didn't find them). I was also trying to find out who made the gear lubes for Sam's Club. I was curious about specs on their oils. I'm going to be buying these by the 5 gallon bucket and those two brands are readily available that way. I decided against those for my 80W-90 gear DIFF gear oil choice. I think I'm going to try the Valvoline 80W-90 High Performance Gear Oil. Is is a higher viscosity GL-5 and appears to have *some* LSD additive, so it should work for the rear of the Xterra/Frontier, unless there simply isn't enough of the additive and I get some chatter. I can add a bit more additive then, and better control my LSD activity.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
[b

NOTE: This list is only a "suggested" list of MTFs. It is not an endorsement of any one fluid, nor is it implied that any one fluid will cure problems in MTs that have design problems or those that have excessive wear.

1. Redline MTL 75W80
2. Amsoil MTF (9.7 cSt)
3. GM Synchromesh's
4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)
6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF
7. Motylgear 75W-80

Interesting...what I noticed is that each of these products must change viscosity from time to time also. I noticed the current Amsoil datasheet for their MTL list above (synchromesh), is now listed as 10.1 cSt. They must alter their products regularly.
Originally Posted by MolaKule

Your second question was about differential lubes.

In my 2012 Frontier I use a 75w110 in the rear differential and a 75W90 in the front differential, all synthetic.

Interesting how you arrived at that choice too! Did you spec out the DIFF fluids too, by any chance. I've not worked with any of these later model vehicles yet, but I wonder how the specs changed compared with my old 2000-2004 stuff. Did you spec out the DIFF fluids on your 1st Gen Frontier?

 

[Spddm0n]

*SPECIAL NOTE*
I just got off the phone with Valvoline and they said they NO LONGER HAVE LSD ADDITIVE in their 80W-90 High Performance Gear Oil (conventional)! They changed it about a year ago. Plus, they do not sell the Valvoline VP011 LSD additive retail. They only supply that to shops that have been "trained" to use the product. They also said they do have it in all the synthetic products, and in the concentration of 4 oz/quart of LSD additive. Wow! The VP011 additive by itself is suggested as 4 oz/1.8 quart...about 1/2 the concentration of the synthetic additive.

I guess the search continues!!!

 

[MolaKule]

Quote
Who did you have actually make the oils you developed?


I formulated, developed, and blended my own lubes.

Quote
Interesting...what I noticed is that each of these products must change viscosity from time to time also. I noticed the current Amsoil datasheet for their MTL list above (synchromesh), is now listed as 10.1 cSt. They must alter their products regularly.


No, but formulations do change. 9.7 or 10.1cSt, it is still in the same range for the SAE grade.

Quote
Interesting how you arrived at that choice too! Did you spec out the DIFF fluids too, by any chance. I've not worked with any of these later model vehicles yet, but I wonder how the specs changed compared with my old 2000-2004 stuff. Did you spec out the DIFF fluids on your 1st Gen Frontier?



Yes I did but my current Frontier has the LSD diffy. The 2001 Frontier is no longer a topic for me.


You have been given recommendations based on analysis and experience. Is there a specific question here that needs answered?

 

[Spddm0n]

Originally Posted by MolaKule


Yes I did but my current Frontier has the LSD diffy. The 2001 Frontier is no longer a topic for me.

What are you using in the LSD on your current Frontier? I spoke to Valvoline this week and they told me the ratio of friction modifier in their synthetic gear oils is 4 oz modifier to 1 quart gear oil. I can't say if I believe that or not, or perhaps the guy was mistaken. The guys at the Napa store here seem to suggest they have almost always told customers to add friction modifier to the gear oil, since the additives in the gear oil alone hasn't been enough to eliminate chatter (based on experience of their customers and their complaints with the gear oil for LSD applications). Something is amiss here. Either they just want to sell more product, or there is a major disconnect with manufacturers changing formulas and not telling anyone (like Valvoline removing all the friction modifiers from their conventional products and using the same part numbers).

Originally Posted by MolaKule

You have been given recommendations based on analysis and experience. Is there a specific question here that needs answered?

No, thank you. I'm not looking for recommendations. I'm looking for data, dialogue, and answers.

I'm an engineer and learning my way through choosing oils for myself, based on information that is tough to get, except maybe from folks like you performing oil analysis. I'm researching a lot of historical data, but all the while, muddling through misinformation - even, perhaps, at the manufacturer level.

 

[Gillsy]

Originally Posted by Pablo
First of all I like MTL. I use it!!

Now Mr. Defense kicks in.

I am going to write this and duck quickly

This kind of data is good, and it is data, but - I cannot conclude that Amsoil actually caused more wear in less miles with less load. What was in the tranny before? What, perhaps did the Amsoil clean out? What if the test was started with MTL? How many shifts were missed? How was the sample taken? Yes I'm a biased buttboy - but I have TGR in my rear end right now. I'll sample at 50 K miles (in about 6K miles)

Why was the cebu sad? Was it a aluminum or wooden canoe? oh sorry I've been listening to the kids music too much.

+1

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by Spddm0n
Originally Posted by MolaKule


Yes I did but my current Frontier has the LSD diffy. The 2001 Frontier is no longer a topic for me.

What are you using in the LSD on your current Frontier? I spoke to Valvoline this week and they told me the ratio of friction modifier in their synthetic gear oils is 4 oz modifier to 1 quart gear oil. I can't say if I believe that or not, or perhaps the guy was mistaken. The guys at the Napa store here seem to suggest they have almost always told customers to add friction modifier to the gear oil, since the additives in the gear oil alone hasn't been enough to eliminate chatter (based on experience of their customers and their complaints with the gear oil for LSD applications). Something is amiss here. Either they just want to sell more product, or there is a major disconnect with manufacturers changing formulas and not telling anyone (like Valvoline removing all the friction modifiers from their conventional products and using the same part numbers).



There is no conspiracy here and formulas are changed often.

I use a 75W110 GL-5 that has the FM designed in and have not had to add any external FM.

Some LSD differentials are not happy with the gear oils that are LSD rated, and some are.

If your diffy squeaks, chirps, or shudders on tight figure eight turns, then you need to add about 4 0z. of FM at a time until the noise stops. I think that was what the Valvoline guy was referring to.