Honda Accord V6 Destroyed -- Timing Belt Failure

[Dave Sherman]

Originally Posted by Brybo86
Originally Posted by Dave Sherman
Bent valves can be replaced, or throw a new head on it. OEM belt may be preferred, but if you do a J35 timing belt by the book, you also need to replace the bolts for the idler and tensioner. Seems they stretch and can shear if you don't replace them. Also need Loctite on the idler pulley bolt. I'm guessing this "mechanic" didn't replace those bolts and/or didn't put the Loctite on. I kind of doubt the belt broke after only 4700 miles, unless it was damaged during the installation.

I thought belts were a bad idea, especially on an interference engine. Then I owned a Traverse. I learned chains can have problems too, and it's not as easy to replace those. I'll take my chances with the Pilot's belt; it can be replaced without removing the engine first.

Does the dealer actually replace these bolts?
Can I see your invoice where it shows the parts they used....?


I don't have an invoice because I haven't had to replace mine yet. I'm only repeating what's in Honda's service manual. I would hope that if the dealer does it, and the official Honda procedure recommends replacing those bolts, then they would actually be replaced.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
No, students never worked on the car. The head of the department did the work at his private shop. He has a good reputation in our area, but of course that may or may not mean he's a good mechanic.


That sounds like the worst case of worst case scenarios. This is the situation why do many shops do not like customer supplied parts. I can see now why he wouldn't honor any type of warranty. You might be able to get a parts warranty for the belt from Honda, but I know with Ford if they determine the failure was from installer error, there is no warranty.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

I had a 2001 Civic that the same thing happened to.......factory belt and tensioner were replaced with factory parts, and the tensioner spring failed in about 30k miles after that. My mechanic fixed it all up for free and charged Honda for his time, something like $2500.

 

[CrackyWainwright]

Originally Posted by 69GTX
Did the shop owner do all the work himself? If others did part of this job....same concern. How qualified were they? Did you supply new OEM bolts for the tensionors/pulleys?


1. Shop owner did all the work himself. No assistants, no students.
2. No, I did not supply new bolts for the tensioners/pulleys. The group of parts I purchased didn't come with new bolts, so I'm sure he used what was already on the car.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
No, students never worked on the car. The head of the department did the work at his private shop. He has a good reputation in our area, but of course that may or may not mean he's a good mechanic.


That sounds like the worst case of worst case scenarios. This is the situation why do many shops do not like customer supplied parts. I can see now why he wouldn't honor any type of warranty. You might be able to get a parts warranty for the belt from Honda, but I know with Ford if they determine the failure was from installer error, there is no warranty.


This sounds similar to the reports of Gates Subaru timing belt idler pulley bolt problem a few years ago. Old bolts that are subjected to high side loading are more prone to fail.

 

[Elkins45]

This is an interesting thread, but it's like a book with the last chapter missing. We still don't actually know what caused the engine failure, do we? For all we know it locked up because a connecting rod grenaded and is jammed into the cylinder wall.

Until the covers come off this is all just speculation.

 

[PandaBear]

1) Belt doesn't suck, chain does if not designed right. If belt sucks all those legendary 90s Honda / Toyota would not have the reputation of that era.

2) It could be installation labor or parts too, things do happen, ask him to make it right and see what can be done. It could be easy it could be hard, wont' know until he tear into it and see.

3) 14 years, 200k, it is borderline used up financially speaking, especially a Honda V6 automatic due to the transmission reliability reputation. I wouldn't throw another engine at it without swapping in another transmission along the way. But is it worth it to YOU?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by bubbatime
He didn't tighten the idler properly. It worked it's way loose, is my guess.

Let him tear it apart. Probably less than $800 to get it working again.

The one that I did was $1700 in parts and machine shop work alone, not including any shop labor.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...da-v6-engine-that-jumps-time#Post5114003

 

[Brybo86]

Now you have me all worried as I did not replace the idler bolt when I did the TB / WP on my odyssey a month ago...

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Brybo86
Now you have me all worried as I did not replace the idler bolt when I did the TB / WP on my odyssey a month ago...

No one ever replaces that bolt. I doubt that is the issue.

 

[Brybo86]

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by bubbatime
He didn't tighten the idler properly. It worked it's way loose, is my guess.

Let him tear it apart. Probably less than $800 to get it working again.

The one that I did was $1700 in parts and machine shop work alone, not including any shop labor.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...da-v6-engine-that-jumps-time#Post5114003


I don't see the idler bolt and or tensioner bolt in your parts list, did you reuse them?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Brybo86
Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by bubbatime
He didn't tighten the idler properly. It worked it's way loose, is my guess.

Let him tear it apart. Probably less than $800 to get it working again.

The one that I did was $1700 in parts and machine shop work alone, not including any shop labor.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...da-v6-engine-that-jumps-time#Post5114003


I don't see the idler bolt and or tensioner bolt in your parts list, did you reuse them?

On the instructions for the J30, nothing is listed about the tensioner bolt. The instructions state to add thread locker to the idler pulley bolt if it is reused.

 

[CrackyWainwright]

Originally Posted by Elkins45
This is an interesting thread, but it's like a book with the last chapter missing. We still don't actually know what caused the engine failure, do we? For all we know it locked up because a connecting rod grenaded and is jammed into the cylinder wall.

Until the covers come off this is all just speculation.


We still don't know the full story, but we do know the timing belt broke or came loose because the mechanic who did the work was so surprised that what should have been a routine repair went bad that he came to my house Friday to look at the car once I had it towed home. He looked through the little inspection holes on the covers, asked me to turn the engine over by trying to crank it, and then said that the camshaft wheels/sprokets (I'm sure this isn't the right term) are NOT turning -- thus no belt force.

 

[AC1DD]

I starting to wonder if the "new" belt was old stock and possibly the rubber was brittle from the get go.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by AC1DD
I starting to wonder if the "new" belt was old stock and possibly the rubber was brittle from the get go.

The timing belt did not break due to condition, or else the mechanic who installed it was far worse than we imagine in this thread.

I have installed many timing belts on both my vehicles and for others and never have I seen one that even looks worn much less "brittle", neither new nor used.

 

[njohnson]

Originally Posted by 02SE
I can't say I've ever seen a (properly installed) genuine OEM belt fail so early. Most don't fail until well after the suggested replacement interval.

I'd say a mistake during installation (T-belts don't fare well when mishandled during installation), a 'Mechanic' that knows theory, but has trouble putting it into practice, or counterfeit/ low-quality parts. There are a lot of junk parts out there, labeled as OEM or quality name brands. I'd be leery of any supposed OEM or name brand parts on, say, Ebay, at too-good-to-be-true prices.


The OP didn't say where OEM parts were purchased from?

This is becoming something that has to be checked carefully, especially when buying from places like Ebay and Amazon. There are so many sellers on there, You need to be careful when buying. I was looking around Amazon at Honda and Toyota oil filters and came across listing to where they looked very close to OEM oil filters, but, they were not.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Brybo86
Now you have me all worried as I did not replace the idler bolt when I did the TB / WP on my odyssey a month ago...


Nothing to worry about, its broke. If a bolt broke or came out who knows until you have a look and at least satisfy your own curiosity.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
Originally Posted by A_Harman
Don't jump to conclusions.
Dig into it, see how bad it really is.
Maybe it's not too bad to rebuild.
You can make it better than it was.
Better.
Stronger.
Faster.


I appreciate your confidence in me, but I'm no mechanic. I can do basic maintenance, but no serious mechanic work.

The latest timing belt job was done with OEM Honda parts by the head of the auto mechanics department of our local community college. He has a good reputation as both a teacher and the owner of a private shop. He's offering no warranty, but said he would donate his labor to tear into the engine and see what part failed -- nothing more than just research and diagnosis -- if I pay another $100 to have the Accord towed to his shop.


So this could be a great learning situation for the auto mechanics-in-training at the community college. At such low miles after the repair, maybe the mechanic did something wrong.
Have them investigate, it will give them good experience in diagnostics and failure analysis.

 

[Elkins45]

Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
Originally Posted by Elkins45
This is an interesting thread, but it's like a book with the last chapter missing. We still don't actually know what caused the engine failure, do we? For all we know it locked up because a connecting rod grenaded and is jammed into the cylinder wall.

Until the covers come off this is all just speculation.


We still don't know the full story, but we do know the timing belt broke or came loose because the mechanic who did the work was so surprised that what should have been a routine repair went bad that he came to my house Friday to look at the car once I had it towed home. He looked through the little inspection holes on the covers, asked me to turn the engine over by trying to crank it, and then said that the camshaft wheels/sprokets (I'm sure this isn't the right term) are NOT turning -- thus no belt force.


It's possible you didn't suffer any head/valve damage. To me it's definitely worth at least pulling the valve cover to see what happened.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by njohnson
Originally Posted by 02SE
I can't say I've ever seen a (properly installed) genuine OEM belt fail so early. Most don't fail until well after the suggested replacement interval.

I'd say a mistake during installation (T-belts don't fare well when mishandled during installation), a 'Mechanic' that knows theory, but has trouble putting it into practice, or counterfeit/ low-quality parts. There are a lot of junk parts out there, labeled as OEM or quality name brands. I'd be leery of any supposed OEM or name brand parts on, say, Ebay, at too-good-to-be-true prices.


The OP didn't say where OEM parts were purchased from?

This is becoming something that has to be checked carefully, especially when buying from places like Ebay and Amazon. There are so many sellers on there, You need to be careful when buying. I was looking around Amazon at Honda and Toyota oil filters and came across listing to where they looked very close to OEM oil filters, but, they were not.


He didn't say where the "OEM" parts were bought, unless I missed it.

I do know that counterfeit parts are a real problem. The counterfeiters are unfortunately getting very good at replicating the packaging of genuine parts. Unless you're very familiar with all the details of OEM packaging, it would be easy to be fooled.

So the old buyer beware comes into play. If it's from a possibly questionable source, and the price seems to good to be true, I'd likely skip those parts for a more reputable source. Such as a licensed dealer for the brand.