Honda Accord V6 Destroyed -- Timing Belt Failure

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright


We've debated this before, but I still say a timing belt on an interference engine is a terrible design. If any one part of the timing belt kit fails, the engine is ruined. Everything still works on my Accord still except the engine. The black leather seats are still beautiful.



You picked woefully under qualified people to change a critical part of your vehicle. The reality is the car is 14 years old and not worth a ton and I would have been tempted too. I am unsure how much It cost but a comparison of getting a screaming bargain on a timing belt at the Acura (MDX) dealer was $600 on a really slow winter day with tech sitting about. With a dealer you only get a 1yr/12,000 mile warranty on repair labor/parts.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by Skippy722


I agree. A well designed timing chain system can easily last the life of a car and then some. But there are poorly designed ones that don't last nearly as long. Either way... gimme the chains please!



Even well designed ones see occasional failures, and as they get older, tensioner, plastic guides, etc become greater concerns. There is risk with chains too, so an opinion that "either way" to have a chain may not play out. There's something to be said about rebaselining actual mechanical timing every 100k or so... how many folks with these life of vehicle chains actually measure wear, let alone compensate with a woodruff key? Likely next to none.



Originally Posted by bullwinkle
First thing I would do is find a better mechanic, second thing would be to get your damaged new timing parts off & make the guy exchange therm for new ones, so that you can have them put on the new (used) engine. Also, parts suppliers do sometimes help with labor for replacement failed parts, but not in this case. Everyone makes mistakes, something was likely assembled wrong-an actual quality mechanic would stand behind their work. I honestly wouldn't let them touch it at this point.


The key here is that it was a school. Schools and teachers likely don't offer a warranty. If anything, taking it back would give them another learning experience, which is why those places are cheaper to begin with... they're trading labor for learning. The professor could be the best in the world, question is, how do they qc/qa every last step on every job.

A timing belt is a pretty robust item. There is risk with the outcome here, but if they're willing to tear into it for free, it seems to me that it's the best bet. They are standing behind it the best they can given that its a trade school, not a shop, where the overhead you pay on labor and parts covers warranty claims. Taking it to another mechanic still has a human element of risk, and any subsequent repair beyond slapping s new belt on is likely to get very $$$$ for a 200k mile vehicle.

 

[atikovi]

Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
Well, this past Friday with a mere 4,700 miles on the latest timing belt and water pump, the belt broke and blew up the engine I assume since it's an interference engine.

I had it towed back to my house, and it breaks my heart to see it sitting in the carport more or less dead.


Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
I appreciate your confidence in me, but I'm no mechanic. I can do basic maintenance, but no serious mechanic work.


If you're no mechanic, how do you come to the conclusion the belt even broke? You say nothing about a mechanic looking at it after it died.

 

[NormanBuntz]

Were all parts purchased from a Honda dealer? If so, return them for free replacement parts. If purchased from a third party and not a dealer, parts may not be true Honda parts. And I'd kiss the instructor goodbye.

 

[Trav]

Don't think for a second a chain is the answer it is not, many engines have broken chains and been damaged.
While possible I doubt its a new parts failure but rather an installation failure or a failure of the mounting hardware (bolt). You need to have a mechanic look at this and find out what happened and what its going to take to repair it.

The covers are not hard to remove, do it and post some pics.

 

[skyactiv]

I'd hate to dump a bunch of money fixing a car that is now 14 model years old with 200K on it. You can spend lots of money having it fixed only for the transmission to go out a month later.
And if you dump a bunch of money into it and 2 days later someone smashes into you totaling your car, you wont get anymore money out of it just because you dumped a fortune having your car repaired.
I may sound negative often, but I do so to point things out.

 

[Dave Sherman]

Bent valves can be replaced, or throw a new head on it. OEM belt may be preferred, but if you do a J35 timing belt by the book, you also need to replace the bolts for the idler and tensioner. Seems they stretch and can shear if you don't replace them. Also need Loctite on the idler pulley bolt. I'm guessing this "mechanic" didn't replace those bolts and/or didn't put the Loctite on. I kind of doubt the belt broke after only 4700 miles, unless it was damaged during the installation.

I thought belts were a bad idea, especially on an interference engine. Then I owned a Traverse. I learned chains can have problems too, and it's not as easy to replace those. I'll take my chances with the Pilot's belt; it can be replaced without removing the engine first.

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted by skyactiv
I'd hate to dump a bunch of money fixing a car that is now 14 model years old with 200K on it. You can spend lots of money having it fixed only for the transmission to go out a month later.
And if you dump a bunch of money into it and 2 days later someone smashes into you totaling your car, you wont get anymore money out of it just because you dumped a fortune having your car repaired.
I may sound negative often, but I do so to point things out.


DITTO! Too many risks at this point.

 

[kschachn]

I'm going to go with everyone else that believes this is a mechanic's mistake. He could have made a similar mistake replacing a timing chain, or any other part. No way an OEM timing belt "breaks" in under 5000 miles. I've replaced them on both my old Sienna and the Accord at over 100,000 miles and they still look as though they could go another 100,000 miles.

This was some sort of installation screw-up.

 

[WyrTwister]

I would start looking for a good / low mileage salvage yard engine . If there any for your year model car .

Does Honda do crate engines ? For that old a car ?

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I would start looking for a good / low mileage salvage yard engine . If there any for your year model car .

Does Honda do crate engines ? For that old a car ?


Bad advice on a 14 year old vehicle with 200k. It served a nice life move on.

 

[WylieCoyote]

If you love the car, find a local Honda specialist, and have it towed to him. When I was considering an old Prelude as a 2nd car, I talked to a Honda guy in Dallas that seemed to know about every nut and bolt on older Hondas. He gave me an idea of what the cost would be to replace the belt on a 2002 Accord V6 I was also considering. While not cheap, it would be cheaper than a dealership, while still getting a warranty for stuff like what just happened to you. I ruled out the purchase because the belt added too much cost on top of buying the car. But your situation is different.

At least get it diagnosed before dumping it. You may find out it's just some bent valves.

They guy that bought my Mom's '85 Accord SE-i had this happen on the highway in 1995. New valves was all it needed. Same deal for a friend of mine with a 88 Integra. You might get lucky.

 

[Brybo86]

Originally Posted by Dave Sherman
Bent valves can be replaced, or throw a new head on it. OEM belt may be preferred, but if you do a J35 timing belt by the book, you also need to replace the bolts for the idler and tensioner. Seems they stretch and can shear if you don't replace them. Also need Loctite on the idler pulley bolt. I'm guessing this "mechanic" didn't replace those bolts and/or didn't put the Loctite on. I kind of doubt the belt broke after only 4700 miles, unless it was damaged during the installation.

I thought belts were a bad idea, especially on an interference engine. Then I owned a Traverse. I learned chains can have problems too, and it's not as easy to replace those. I'll take my chances with the Pilot's belt; it can be replaced without removing the engine first.

Does the dealer actually replace these bolts?
Can I see your invoice where it shows the parts they used....?

 

[CT8]

Time to buy a new car but first see what you can do with who did the job or the parts that were installed. It is a procedure.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Please find out the amount of damage done.
A friend has a timing belt go in an early 90's Integra; I thought a valve was bent for sure.
A new belt did the job and he drove it for years.

Good luck.

 

[KrisZ]

As much as it sucks to have something like this happen to a well maintained vehicle, I agree with others that it's time to move on. Dumping a bunch of money into a 14 year old, 200k mile car is not a prudent move.

But this is BITOG where spending money that is not yours is just part of doing things "properly" and we all know that Hondas and Toyotas can go 300k miles with nothing but oil changes.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Brybo86
Originally Posted by Dave Sherman
Bent valves can be replaced, or throw a new head on it. OEM belt may be preferred, but if you do a J35 timing belt by the book, you also need to replace the bolts for the idler and tensioner. Seems they stretch and can shear if you don't replace them. Also need Loctite on the idler pulley bolt. I'm guessing this "mechanic" didn't replace those bolts and/or didn't put the Loctite on. I kind of doubt the belt broke after only 4700 miles, unless it was damaged during the installation.

I thought belts were a bad idea, especially on an interference engine. Then I owned a Traverse. I learned chains can have problems too, and it's not as easy to replace those. I'll take my chances with the Pilot's belt; it can be replaced without removing the engine first.

Does the dealer actually replace these bolts?
Can I see your invoice where it shows the parts they used....?


No idea if the dealer does or even if its recommended by Honda but I do as most of the stuff I work on specs new bolts for many things once they have been removed. It is good practice regardless.
You should always use OE bolts not substitutes unless you are absolutely familiar with the spec (stretch, hardness rating, reduced diameter head or shoulder, etc) and the bolt quality is as good or better eg AP bolts.

 

[CrackyWainwright]

Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright
Originally Posted by A_Harman
Don't jump to conclusions.
Dig into it, see how bad it really is.
Maybe it's not too bad to rebuild.
You can make it better than it was.
Better.
Stronger.
Faster.


I appreciate your confidence in me, but I'm no mechanic. I can do basic maintenance, but no serious mechanic work.

The latest timing belt job was done with OEM Honda parts by the head of the auto mechanics department of our local community college. He has a good reputation as both a teacher and the owner of a private shop. He's offering no warranty, but said he would donate his labor to tear into the engine and see what part failed -- nothing more than just research and diagnosis -- if I pay another $100 to have the Accord towed to his shop.


Sorry to say this but this^^^ is why your beloved Accord is no more. You took it to a community college where the teacher may have been a great tech, but it is STILL A SCHOOL and the students are NOT great techs, they are learning. What you did was donate your vehicle to the learning experience of the students.

And I'm sure you signed a waiver saying that the school is not responsible for any and all damage that may occur during the repair (lost and stolen items, damage to the car, etc). It's a risk you take when you try to save money on car repairs - and usually it pays off in places like this - but the bigger repairs (timing belts, engine work) are usually a big risk...one that the school usually won't take on. I feel for everyone involved; the educator probably feels terrible about it, but it's not his fault, he can't watch every bolt that his students tighten and loosen...his only fault might be taking in this job in the first place. And maybe a part did just flat out fail - but even then it's tough for a school to handle this because what are they going to do? They don't have a designated person to deal with warranty claims.


This is inaccurate. The car was NEVER at the automotive department of the college. The instructor/mechanic did the work at his private shop with new parts I supplied.

 

[CrackyWainwright]

Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by CrackyWainwright


We've debated this before, but I still say a timing belt on an interference engine is a terrible design. If any one part of the timing belt kit fails, the engine is ruined. Everything still works on my Accord still except the engine. The black leather seats are still beautiful.



You picked woefully under qualified people to change a critical part of your vehicle. The reality is the car is 14 years old and not worth a ton and I would have been tempted too. I am unsure how much It cost but a comparison of getting a screaming bargain on a timing belt at the Acura (MDX) dealer was $600 on a really slow winter day with tech sitting about. With a dealer you only get a 1yr/12,000 mile warranty on repair labor/parts.


No, students never worked on the car. The head of the department did the work at his private shop. He has a good reputation in our area, but of course that may or may not mean he's a good mechanic.

 

[69GTX]

Did the shop owner do all the work himself? If others did part of this job....same concern. How qualified were they? Did you supply new OEM bolts for the tensionors/pulleys?