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Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread #5236126 10/10/19 04:51 PM
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Albs Offline OP
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Hello there everybody, I found myself amazed reading a bunch of oil threads in this forum during the last weeks and I'm grateful as I've read lots of good advices and researches that really helped increasing my awareness in the matter.
I'm a European (from Rome,Italy) owner of a MY17-> Toyota GT86 (brz/frs) and I would really like to ask this community a bunch of questions regarding the best oil for this Subaru engine according to my driving needs.

But first let me do a quick recap/summary of what we know about this engine for now.

1- What the manual(s) say
Europe: 0w20 is the reccomended oil, you can put 5w30 if you cannot find 0w20 but you have to put back the 0w20 at the next change. API SN. A thicker oil can be used in case of high speeds / extreme load usage.
Japanese Manual: SUBARU MOTOR OIL ECO 0W-20, SUBARU MOTOR OIL SN 0W-20 SUBARU レ・プレイアード ZERO 0W-30, SUBARU MOTOR OIL ECO 5W-30, SUBARU MOTOR OIL SN 5W-30 SUBARU Castrol SLX Professional SM 5W-40
The officine manual says that you're good if within an 80° C oil temp you reach a pressure of >= 0,5 bar (7,2 psi) idling or >=5,03 bar (7250 psi) at 6000 rpm and does not give any other scenario than this.

2- What failure history say
It seems that a number of bearing rod failures had happened in the 2012/2013 launch models, doesn't seem connected (just speculating) to the oil in use or to a design flaw, since there has not been any official recall by Subaru and Toyota enforcing users to change rod bearings or the oil used. The only recall for this engine seems to regard the valve springs until MY2015
There's also a number of engine failures encountered during track usage regardless of the oil weight, most likely to the great G-Forces generated by the usage of semislicks or grippier tyre than UHP or Street tyers and the boxer's design. In reality there's also a number of MY17+ that had rod bearing failure, the last one (in Italy) a couple of weeks ago during a track day on the out-lap, with Bardhal 5W40, at 20k km (approx 12,5k miles) although the owner said that he had driven the car in several trackdays before with 0w20 oil inside but always with an upgraded oil pan and oil cooler. So who knows why do the rod bearing fail in this car? In italy there's a total of less than 2000 GT86/BRZ sold and so far it looks like we had 20 failures for what we can know on the web, some of the in track, some of them had never been abused by their owners.

3- What the web says
Oil pressure panic: A bunch of people are concerned about the oil pressure drop at higher temps. The car does not have neither an oil radiator cooler nor a water/oil heat exchanger, the temps can go up really fast to 120/130 °C (248/266 F) if you go WOT for a few minutes. The original ECU is programmed to change behaviour if oil reaches a temperature of 125° C (ca. 255 F) and starts cutting hp.
UOA: most of them are on 5W30 oil (good ones), and some people claim to get good UOAs of 0w20 trackday samples regarding wear, but now showing results. In Europe we don't have a culture for UOA, I would like to try something like that for my car with the next oil change but the prices go from 100 to 250 € per sample wich I find rather expensive, how much do they cost in North America?
Car enthusiasts say that the 0w20 is a gift to Greta Thunberg and an oil created only to aid car manufacturers to reach CO2 emissions limit standards in europe, and it's not good for a sports car like ours.
Friends with Gt86 say that I'm a fool to use 0w20 grade, but here we do seem to have Dr. Haas happy with 5w20 on Ferrari, Lambo etc.

4-What I learned in this forum so far
HTHS it seems by a presentation of Boris Zhmud dated 2016 that low hths oils are good for fuel economy just at high speeds and low load scenarios, while they perform less than higher viscosity oils in low rpms (below 1500) and high load scenarios. He points that a safe HTHS value for good wear protection starts from 2,85+, that low hths and i think ILSAC G5+ oils tend to have an higher additive arsenal to reduce boundary lubrication. He states also that the fuel savings in a 30k km/year is really too small to compromise the potential loss in wear protection.
Engine Wear From some case studies seems like 95% of the wear in the cylinder bore comes within the first 20 minutes of usage, maybe due to an improper oil film distribuition or non-optimal oil temperature while the piston ring wear seems to be connected to the brake mean effective pressure (BMEP).
of course when the engine is at nominal functioning condition the wear goes up with enigne rpms but non in a proportional manner.
Cavitation may be another factor to take into account when selecting the right oil

5-My struggles in finding the right oil
This is the section where I call out for Your help.
The Gt86 is my daily/commuting/weekend and trackday car.
- I live in Rome, winter temps 0-15° C, summer temps 22-39 °C
- I live near the highway, so every time i start up i'm on the highway cruising at 2500 rpms with the both the engine and oil in non-optimal and cold condition for 20 km, then 3 km in the city traffic.
- I am in WOT condition everyday in the last 8km (on 52 driven in total) of the travel back to home (with both engine and oil in normal temperatures)
- I plan to track the car 2-3 times a year, mostly in autumn/spring in slow tracks that are 2nd and 3rd gear and 130 km/h max speed with tight curves and a very short straight, and I do some spirited driving 5 to 10 times a year, usually not pushing the 7200 rpm redline since the torque is finished at 6500/6800 with the 95 ron fuel.
- car must stay stock for the next 2,5 years so whitin the offiicial maintenance schedule I have to stick with either the 0w20 or 5w30 by Toyota (should be Motul).

For now I've driven 4600 miles with the stock 0w20 inside, then drained it and switched to a 5w30 Motul 8100 eco-lite (hths 3.3) since it was May and i did track the ca. I kept the oil for the whole summer then switched back to the mandatory 0w20 Toyota with the first service at 8900 miles (so 4300 miles later). I have to report that since the first kilometer with the 5w30 the car felt really slower in gaining momentum, and it felt like reborn when a lower viscosity oil was back in the engine. Man i really hate the 5w30 performance-wise and for the tipical usage that i do (80% commuting) I also was scared thinking that I might have been sacrificing the cold engine usage that I happen to experience everyday.

So here we go with the final question(s)
Taking into account my driving habit, the kind of climate, the car and the history of failures:
- Are those rod bearing failures random?
- Should I be more focused on protecting the car from the high load wear (WOT) or should i focus more on the cold start / normal usage?-
- Should I keep the habit of changing oil weight or it's best to stick to one weight only?
- Should I choose a compromise hths (lower than 3.3 but higher than 2.85 to ensure wear protection) like a 0w30 oil (2.9/3.0)?
- Should I stick to ILSAC G5 oils for the boundary friction protection?
- What should I do to try and get the longest life possible out of this car?
- What da ***k is the right oil for this car?
- When the warranty will have expired, would a water/oil exchanger more suitable than an oil cooler?
- Could the installation of Billet Power Blocks (to shift the torque curve to lower rpms sacrifing the total hp at the rev-limit) prevent some wear (since I rev less) or the major torque on the lower end would cause more load and wear at the rod bearings?

Thanks in advance for the answers!

Last edited by Albs; 10/10/19 05:07 PM.
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236146 10/10/19 05:17 PM
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PimTac Offline
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I don’t know where to start.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236155 10/10/19 05:26 PM
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paoester Online Content
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Your winter only gets to 0 celsius, thats fine for a synthetic 5w30. That is not extremely cold. Cold is not an issue here.
Since you race the car, even in amateur level runs, a 5w30 is a good idea in case you get excessive heat which will thin the oil a bit.
If it were me, in Italy, I'd get a full-PAO 5w30 with HTHS about 3.0, say 2.9 to 3.2 is about right since it adds a buffer above the basic non-racing 0w20 recomendation from Toyota-Subaru. Ravenol probably makes one of those available there.

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236214 10/10/19 06:40 PM
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@paoester
HDX? HTHS 3.4, nearly all right, but >10% Noack is sadly not a revelation... But I see also, many many other GF-5 on the market are much worse smirk2

@Albs
Wow. Scary. Are you last night burgle in my home and tap my brain? laugh Excellent post. Great.
Quote
Car enthusiasts say that the 0w20 is a gift to Greta Thunberg and an oil created only to aid car manufacturers to reach CO2 emissions limit standards in europe
Hmm... You say, your car is named GT86? wink2

I have now a small troop of TypeR (2017, 2018) owners. Identically the same thoughts. Word for word grin
I think you search for oils like
https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-sfe-sae-5w-20.html
or
https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-dxg-sae-5w-30.html

Must not only be Ravenol, but Ravenol make in contrast to Shell/Mobil1/Castrol, mostly, PROPER datasheets (for approximate estimation).
The question of cold oil and wear is for me not the question about KV40 between wee-wee 0W-20 and 5W-30. Thats question about, HOW you drive the first 15 mins.

edit:
Wow. 10,874 posts since 2017. I though at my beginning, what a power user what all of those useful inputs...

Last edited by Lowflyer; 10/10/19 06:59 PM.
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236228 10/10/19 06:56 PM
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welcome



Originally Posted by Albs

Car enthusiasts say that the 0w20 is a gift to Greta Thunberg ...


LOL LOL

I would use a good 5W30, especially if you are using it on track days at slow tracks. Maybe you can switch to 0W20 on winter, but is not necessary .

I got nothing on the failures, but probably is not related to the oil that was being used.

I also live near the highway, so i like to let the car warm up a little before i leave.

You seem to know what you are doing and you will be fine. Maybe if you are getting very high oil temps on track, a bigger oil cooler can be a good choice. I think your attention should be on how the engine handles the oil when you have high lateral G forces, and if it can keep the temps in order.

Have fun!


Chevrolet Kadett EFI '94 (Neat ethanol) - Shell Rimula RT4X 15W40

Honda Fit '09 (FlexFuel) - Shell Helix HX8 5W30
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236246 10/10/19 07:17 PM
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Ded Mazai Online Content
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You shouldn't using low octane fuel in this engine. Doing so may contribute to fuel dilution and bearing failures. Octane 98 or 100 is OK. As usual, higher viscosity will give you better protection and lower fuel economy. I am using a 10W-30 in my FA20. Thick when cold to give more protection and thin when hot for better fuel economy. Works fine. I can't tell the difference from a 5W-20. And I am avoiding 0W-20. Can't really see any advantage of using it unless you need to start the engine at -40.

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: PimTac] #5236259 10/10/19 07:25 PM
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kschachn Offline
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Why do you have a clown emoji on your subject line? Is thread a joke to you?

And why do you title it "another" 0W20 thread? If you know other threads exist why not read those first before creating... another one?


1994 BMW 530i, 246K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 420K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: kschachn] #5236278 10/10/19 07:38 PM
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PimTac Offline
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The long drawn out intro post is familiar.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Lowflyer] #5236302 10/10/19 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowflyer
@paoester -- HDX? HTHS 3.4, nearly all right, but >10% Noack is sadly not a revelation... But I see also, many many other GF-5 on the market are much worse smirk2
https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-dxg-sae-5w-30.html
Your DXG suggestion is the one I'd go with. Ravenol DXG description sounds very good: "Ravenol DXG 5W-30 was developed using the proven formulation of trinuclear molybdenum, tungsten and Organic Friction Modifiers (OFM). A further component in the oil of this formulation was used in the highly polar Group V base oil. This also has good compatibility with the PAO in the oil."

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236378 10/10/19 09:15 PM
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jqgz Offline
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0w-30

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236506 10/11/19 12:22 AM
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rubberchicken Online Content
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Bardhal actually sells a real motor oil ? That would be a mega-nope for me.

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: PimTac] #5236536 10/11/19 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by paoester
Your winter only gets to 0 celsius, thats fine for a synthetic 5w30. That is not extremely cold. Cold is not an issue here.
Since you race the car, even in amateur level runs, a 5w30 is a good idea in case you get excessive heat which will thin the oil a bit.
If it were me, in Italy, I'd get a full-PAO 5w30 with HTHS about 3.0, say 2.9 to 3.2 is about right since it adds a buffer above the basic non-racing 0w20 recomendation from Toyota-Subaru. Ravenol probably makes one of those available there.
Thanks for the input paoester, I did not know Ravenol brand, i checked it briefly and it seems it has a wide range of API SN and ILSAC G5 compliant oils, with even 3.1 or 3.7 hths to choose in the 5w30 and a lovely 2.9 for a 5w20 (I might try the 3.1, I see also @Lowflyer linked it: THANKS!) btw I did not know PAO definition so even this is a strong input for reasearch.

Originally Posted by Lowflyer
@paoester
HDX? HTHS 3.4, nearly all right, but >10% Noack is sadly not a revelation... But I see also, many many other GF-5 on the market are much worse smirk2

@Albs
Wow. Scary. Are you last night burgle in my home and tap my brain? laugh Excellent post. Great.
Quote
Car enthusiasts say that the 0w20 is a gift to Greta Thunberg and an oil created only to aid car manufacturers to reach CO2 emissions limit standards in europe
Hmm... You say, your car is named GT86? wink2

The question of cold oil and wear is for me not the question about KV40 between wee-wee 0W-20 and 5W-30. Thats question about, HOW you drive the first 15 mins.
LOL never thought about Greta and that strange correlation with the car, some will say "conspiracy theory" but now I know the truth!
Regarding the first 15 mins i go with little load and 2500/2800 rpm at max and I think I'll stick to this habit. Thanks for the Ravenol links! They are also reasonably priced!


Originally Posted by LeoStrop

welcome

I got nothing on the failures, but probably is not related to the oil that was being used.
Maybe if you are getting very high oil temps on track, a bigger oil cooler can be a good choice. I think your attention should be on how the engine handles the oil when you have high lateral G forces, and if it can keep the temps in order.

Have fun!
Thanks Leo! yep high oil temps are easly reached when pushing (120/130 °C) and the car does not have any oil cooler o oil/water exchanger. When the warranty expires I think I might go for the water/oil heat exchanger: less effective than the oil radiator but it helps on warming up the oil during cold mornings.
As for the lateral G forces that is really a nightmarish situation: they are most likely the reason behind failures but then again as I told you the last guy who screwed up the bearings 3 weeks ago in Italy had already a Sump (Oil Pan) baffled plate installed so I really don't know how to approach the matter!

Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
You shouldn't using low octane fuel in this engine. Doing so may contribute to fuel dilution and bearing failures. Octane 98 or 100 is OK. As usual, higher viscosity will give you better protection and lower fuel economy. I am using a 10W-30 in my FA20. Thick when cold to give more protection and thin when hot for better fuel economy. Works fine. I can't tell the difference from a 5W-20. And I am avoiding 0W-20. Can't really see any advantage of using it unless you need to start the engine at -40.
Thanks for sharing your experience too, there's 98 and 100 octane fuel in here but while the 95 ron costs about 1,6 €/l (the equivalent of 8 usd/gallon) the 98/100 costs 1,85 €/l (9,25 usd/gallon) so 600 to 700 € Worth of savings per year. I tend to put 100 ron in the weekend only!

Originally Posted by kschachn
Why do you have a clown emoji on your subject line? Is thread a joke to you?
And why do you title it "another" 0W20 thread? If you know other threads exist why not read those first before creating... another one?
I've searched and read for similar posts, but most FA20 posts seem not related to the Gt86/frs with the 0w20 and UOA come only for 5w30 by people with non-stock cars. As for the emoji, why so serious? crzy

Originally Posted by PimTac
The long drawn out intro post is familiar.
If you see a ghost from the past hiding behind a fake user fear no more: if you want you can pm me, i'd give you my Fb/WhatsApp ID so you can check in first person If i'm not a 30-year-old guy from Rome!

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236541 10/11/19 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Albs
If you see a ghost from the past[...]
Thats normally here. If your opinion are not forced into line, you are kicked ghost from the past. Its a part of defamation from ours experts. Burn at the stake and so...
Simple solution: Ignore it.

Quote
the 98/100 costs 1,85 €/l (9,25 usd/gallon)
Wow. Thats for example 30c more expensive as I have see Vpower Shell in Germany. Anything is more expensive as Shell in Germany. Madness...

Last edited by Lowflyer; 10/11/19 03:18 AM.
Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Lowflyer] #5236545 10/11/19 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
am using a 10W-30 in my FA20. Thick when cold to give more protection and thin when hot for better fuel economy. Works fine.
PS: on logic basis shouldn't be the opposite better? Thin when cold -> easier flow, faster film creation and protection ->Thick when hot-> better load and wear protection?



Originally Posted by Lowflyer
Wow. Thats for example 30c more expensive as I have see Vpower Shell in Germany. Anything is more expensive as Shell in Germany. Madness...
Do you think spending the 6-700 € plus per year should be Worth the expense in preserving the car?
???

Re: Ano(the)r 0w20 - FA20 Engine Thread [Re: Albs] #5236642 10/11/19 07:22 AM
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I think the "thickness" of 0w-30 or 5w-30 GF-5 are ok.and good enough. But thicker GF-5 have for me louse Noack.

But wait… What technically against 229.5 0W-30?

Buy a Redline SI-1 (litle bottle), put 30ml to each tank. Test it with 95 (EU) fuel. Its dont mutate to Aral Ultimate or Shell Vpower or MaxxMotion 100plus, but maybe its ok enough for you.

650€ more for antoher gasoline fuel is crazy frown

Last edited by Lowflyer; 10/11/19 07:34 AM.
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