Recent Topics
Bought a truck finally, warning no Ford content
by bdcardinal - 06/04/20 11:31 PM
Got a septoplasty today....
by daves66nova - 06/04/20 10:44 PM
2020 330i xDrive Loaner
by MCompact - 06/04/20 10:02 PM
Appliance repair?
by motor_oil_madman - 06/04/20 09:44 PM
Glad we got a seasonal RV site
by Pat in Speedway - 06/04/20 09:19 PM
Mobil 1 AP Clearance at Wal-Mart
by KeithS_NW_Ohio - 06/04/20 09:07 PM
Recent experience with a Michelin Defender
by FordSVTGuy - 06/04/20 08:46 PM
music quality of speakers in the 70's vs now
by raaizin - 06/04/20 08:15 PM
pressure washer care
by raaizin - 06/04/20 08:06 PM
Watch Forums?
by maverickfhs - 06/04/20 07:53 PM
Who has a media/sand blast cabinet?
by spasm3 - 06/04/20 07:39 PM
Why isn't Polyethylene Glycol standard?
by RamFan - 06/04/20 06:37 PM
Motorcraft GF-6 at Quick Lane.
by Gene K - 06/04/20 06:29 PM
OEM Honda wiper blade curvature
by mclasser - 06/04/20 06:24 PM
GDI vs. MPFI OCI's
by LubricatusObsess - 06/04/20 06:19 PM
Mobil “full synthetic”
by 53' Stude - 06/04/20 06:01 PM
1992 Ford Ranger Brake Fluid Type
by yeehaw1960 - 06/04/20 04:21 PM
Of 0w-20 oils, which have highest VI
by Bill_W - 06/04/20 03:44 PM
Gasket vs RTV?
by supton - 06/04/20 02:29 PM
List Impossible Sparkplug Replacement
by borgward - 06/04/20 01:31 PM
Newest Members
stubby73, Polkaman, Ramboagain, tekfire07, Kernal
71608 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
51 registered members (Aaron_Patton, blufeb95, Bladecutter, bdcardinal, 4 invisible), 1,197 guests, and 60 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics306,226
Posts5,288,592
Members71,608
Most Online4,538
Jan 20th, 2020
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? #5234910 10/09/19 01:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 511
B
brages Offline OP
OP Offline
B
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 511
Here is a question:

Is a filter that is 95% efficient at a given particle size only 5% better (i.e. not really significantly better) than a 90% efficient filter?

Or is it twice as good because it's only letting through half as many particles?

Is the logic that the 90% filter will just catch it on the next time through?

Not trolling, genuinely asking.

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5234921 10/09/19 01:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,752
sloinker Offline
Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,752
The efficiency is going to depend on the particle size. If all the particles are smaller than the filter is designed to handle then it would be 0% efficient. Conversely if it caught 100% of the particles it may be in bypass all the time making it 0% efficient. At a certain point of filtering you would possibly start removing some of the add pack chemicals imo. Have you ever gotten a bottle of oil and seen the fallout on the bottom of the bottle? That is why I'm not a big fan of polishing filters for engines. Steam turbines, yes. car engines, no. This is my take and I'm sure the flames will start soon.


'16 Tiguan TSI Vaico 5W40
'15 VW Golf TDI Red Line 5W30 Euro
'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI M1 ESP 5W30
'14 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.6 Valvoline 5W20 Semi Synthetic
'64 Plymouth Fury440 Pending
Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5234927 10/09/19 01:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,863
P
PandaBear Offline
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,863
Depends on your goal.

Are you trying to avoid every single particle escape? or are you trying to harvest the particles for other use (i.e. You are trying to extract particle as raw material for manufacturing process)?

For the first one, 95% is twice as good as 90% in one pass. Remember it is the long term multi-pass that counts in reality, so the reality is going to be a lot lower if you change your filter frequently and not filling it pass the limit.

For the second one, 95% is 5.55% better than 90%.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5234959 10/09/19 02:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,692
Z
ZeeOSix Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,692
Originally Posted by brages
Is a filter that is 95% efficient at a given particle size only 5% better (i.e. not really significantly better) than a 90% efficient filter?

Or is it twice as good because it's only letting through half as many particles?

Is the logic that the 90% filter will just catch it on the next time through?


A less efficient filter might catch particles on subsequent passes. But if a particle goes through the oiling system 3 times instead of once before being captured, then there's more potential for wear.

More efficient filters reduce the overall debris particle count in the oil (show a better UOA particle count), and also reduce the total cumulative passes that particles circulate multiple times through the oiling system.

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: PandaBear] #5234982 10/09/19 02:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 511
B
brages Offline OP
OP Offline
B
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 511
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Depends on your goal.


Assume that this is an engine oil filter and the goal is minimizing long-term engine wear.

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5235006 10/09/19 03:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,956
S
SeaJay Offline
Offline
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,956
An efficiency ratio that increases from 90% to 95% is an increase of 5.5% (ie 95/90-1.0=.055). That is the correct mathematics of the increase.

People can describe it any way they want, some ways are accurate, others can be misleading. That is the way statistics work.

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5235022 10/09/19 03:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 511
B
brages Offline OP
OP Offline
B
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 511
Filter 1 allows through 10% of particles of a given size per pass; Filter 2 allows only 5% of particles. 10% is twice as much as 5%. This math is just as correct as .95/.90 - 1.

The question I'm asking is... which ratio is more relevant to engine wear, and what is the reasoning to support that answer? Will engine wear be twice as high with Filter 1, or only about 5% higher (and therefore probably irrelevant)?

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5235078 10/09/19 04:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,692
Z
ZeeOSix Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,692
Originally Posted by brages
The question I'm asking is... which ratio is more relevant to engine wear, and what is the reasoning to support that answer? Will engine wear be twice as high with Filter 1, or only about 5% higher (and therefore probably irrelevant)?


Just run a filter that is 95% at 20μ or better and you'll be good on efficiency. And don't be fooled by filters rated at "99%" with no micron size, or filters rated 99% at a much larger particle size than 20μ.

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: SeaJay] #5235099 10/09/19 05:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 12,283
wemay Online Happy
Online Happy
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 12,283
Originally Posted by SeaJay
An efficiency ratio that increases from 90% to 95% is an increase of 5.5% (ie 95/90-1.0=.055). That is the correct mathematics of the increase.

People can describe it any way they want, some ways are accurate, others can be misleading. That is the way statistics work.


This^


2019 Volkswagen Passat Wolfsburg TSI: VW OE 0W-20, OE o.filter
2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: RGT 5W-30, OE o.filter
Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5235174 10/09/19 06:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,064
F
Farnsworth Offline
Offline
F
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,064
It would have to be assumed the filters are perfectly made to those numbers, and those test numbers are the final story.

Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5235215 10/09/19 07:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,899
C
CR94 Online Content
Online Content
C
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,899
Neither. It's half as bad.


2011 Toyota Prius now at 110K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: 95% efficient is twice as good as 90% efficient, or 5% better? [Re: brages] #5235268 10/09/19 08:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 8,116
B
bbhero Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 8,116
Beta ratios...

10 vs 20... and 75



100,000 particles upstream before the filter...

90% would mean 10,000 downstream = 10

95% would mean 5,000 downstream= 20

98.6% would mean 1,333 downstream= 75



Of course you need at size for the beta ratio to have any real meaning...





Last edited by bbhero; 10/09/19 08:33 PM.

Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 Full synthetic 5w30 Carquest Blue 84356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™