Another friend gone

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Dr. Dan Greenwald died in a Piper Aerostar on Saturday. We knew each other as we both operate similar Extra 300/330 aircraft and we had a couple of mutual friends. Dan's L-39 was a work of art, meticulously maintained and upgraded. He was a serious aviation enthusiast, instructor and extremely capable pilot.


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...06-ldk4f666fvb67p3tdsjiiggsye-story.html


From what we can tell, the crash happened shortly after takeoff.


I have people calling and texting me, in essence warning me that I'm the last man standing. Not good.
 
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Rest in peace. This was not too far from my 'hood.
I assume the investigation will be able to distinguish if he had a medical issue, or a failure of the aircraft.
As you mention, pilot error is quite unlikely.
 
Yes sorry to hear that. Sounds like another doesn't make sense airplane crash. Where there any witnesses that saw what happened? How far from the runway?
 
It now seems the piston powered, Piper Aerostar he was flying was misfueld with Jet-A. Power was lost shortly after takeoff.

I know FBO's love to fuel aircraft at their leisure. I've always insisted on being present when any fueling is happening. For this very reason, and to ensure an accurate quantity.
 
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This once happened to Bob Hoover when they fueled his piston powered Shrike Commander with Jet-A instead of Avgas. He was later responsible for the development of the "Hoover Nozzle" that made it all but impossible for it to happen again. I wonder how they got it into the tank? Not to mention couldn't the guy tell it was a piston aircraft, and not a turbine? It's easy for most to tell, let alone a guy who fuels aircraft for a living.

They also said he asked the pilot TWICE if he wanted jet fuel. Both times he replied, YES. The whole thing sounds really strange.

"The "Hoover Nozzle", used on jet fuel pumps, is designed with a flattened bell shape. It cannot be inserted in the filler neck of a gasoline-powered aircraft with the "Hoover Ring" installed, thus preventing the tank from accidentally being filled with jet fuel.

This system was given this name following an accident in which Hoover was seriously injured, when both engines on his Shrike Commander failed during takeoff. Investigators found that the plane had just been fueled by line personnel who mistook the piston-engine Shrike for a similar turboprop model, filling the tanks with jet fuel instead of avgas (aviation gasoline). There was enough avgas in the fuel system to taxi to the runway and take off, but then the jet fuel was drawn into the engines, causing them to stop.... The nozzle is now required by federal government regulation on jet fuel pumps"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoover
 
I'm not knowledgeable on airframes, but I assume when you put kerosene in a gasser, it runs fine for a short taxi and takeoff and when the carb(s) and lines get purged of the original avgas, the engine stumbles badly.
 
There is no chance Dan requested jet fuel. None. Dan knew fuels well, he and I had discussed, at length, the high compression pistons in the Extra 300L I operate vs his IO580 powered Extra. Also the Swift fuels 102 octane offering and it's benefits for high compression air cooled engines. There was no mistake on his part.

The fueler likely said this at the direction of his lawyer.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
There is no chance Dan requested jet fuel. None. Dan knew fuels well, he and I had discussed, at length, the high compression pistons in the Extra 300L I operate vs his IO580 powered Extra. Also the Swift fuels 102 octane offering and it's benefits for high compression air cooled engines. There was no mistake on his part.

The fueler likely said this at the direction of his lawyer.

I can buy into that a lot easier than I can a pilot that owns and flies a piston powered aircraft asking for jet fuel...... Twice. The question still remains, how did he get it in there?
 
Sorry for the loss of your friend.

I know of a few folks that have perished in Aerostars.

Sad event in any case.

I prefer self fueling so that I can be the one who scratches the wing and put the correct grade and amount of fuel in.
 
Originally Posted by frankbee3

I prefer self fueling so that I can be the one who scratches the wing and put the correct grade and amount of fuel in.


Yes!!

I advise only a few things to aircraft owners. One is to be there when MX is performed, to take a very active role in maintenance. Another is to always be present when fueling happens. I tell the FBO "will advise" on fuel. Then have them fuel it up while I preflight. Whether it's the G550 or our motorglider, same thing. I guess the crux of my philosophy in aviation is that a pilot/owner must cover the basics properly.

I know they teach pilots to preflight a 172 by checking the safeties on flight control attachment bolts. When was the last time a 172 aileron fell off? Much more likely to take off with the gust lock installed or with insufficient fuel for a trip. And for god's sake make sure the pilots seat is secure so it can't slide back on takeoff. And don't stall it. Etc.
 
Very sorry to hear. Most planes are obvious as to the type of fuel. Any that could lead to confusion need locking caps then the pilot present with fueling. I'm at the lower tier, with an obvious plane. I'm also usually at the self-serve pump.

Just tragic and seemingly easily preventable.
 
Mr. Murphy is alive and well. Had him jump up and bite me more than once around power generation facilities. Here is very good advice for fossil fuel operators. If you start seeing high silica(sand) in your condensate, and the cause evades you for awhile, consider inspecting the hotwell condensate pump cans. I wrote a report for FOMIS about thirty years ago for just such a problem. A weld on a pump sway brace attachment had a porosity which finally opened up after years in service. The 300psig + pressure cut a hole through the can and the can grouting was carried into the condensate. We found buckets of sand in our steam drum before we found out its origin. Cost us over one million in lost revenue. Find a small of stature maintenance volunteer for a visual. Thank you Mr. GC.
 
Has there been any more that has come out, as to how the fueler was able to get Jet-A into the Av-Gas tanks? From what I understand, the nozzle which is designed to specifically prevent this sort of thing from happening, is required by Federal government regulation on ALL jet fuel pumps.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Has there been any more that has come out, as to how the fueler was able to get Jet-A into the Av-Gas tanks? From what I understand, the nozzle which is designed to specifically prevent this sort of thing from happening, is required by Federal government regulation on ALL jet fuel pumps.



Some new info. A different pilot also claimed the same fueler tried to put jet fuel in his Navajo.

The truck had the proper larger jet fuel nozzles. The airplane had the proper fuel fill placards and small fuel
Openings. The fueler had to tilt the nozzle to avoid spillage.

The gallons loaded matched fuel tank capacity. And there is no way he landed with zero fuel. So the fueler spilled well more than the claimed 1 gallon.

Lots of lies from the fueler.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit.


Without a doubt that will be coming. As far as lawsuits go, can't blame the family for going that route. Of course it won't bring anyone back.
 
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