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Another friend gone #5233143 10/07/19 04:21 PM
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Cujet Offline OP
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Dr. Dan Greenwald died in a Piper Aerostar on Saturday. We knew each other as we both operate similar Extra 300/330 aircraft and we had a couple of mutual friends. Dan's L-39 was a work of art, meticulously maintained and upgraded. He was a serious aviation enthusiast, instructor and extremely capable pilot.


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...06-ldk4f666fvb67p3tdsjiiggsye-story.html


From what we can tell, the crash happened shortly after takeoff.


I have people calling and texting me, in essence warning me that I'm the last man standing. Not good.

Last edited by Cujet; 10/07/19 04:22 PM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5233148 10/07/19 04:26 PM
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nascarnation Offline
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Rest in peace. This was not too far from my 'hood.
I assume the investigation will be able to distinguish if he had a medical issue, or a failure of the aircraft.
As you mention, pilot error is quite unlikely.

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5233192 10/07/19 05:24 PM
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CourierDriver Offline
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Sorry for your loss of your friend...


I'd still like to have my 67 Beetle back....life was easy then..imho 2 quarts of oil roughly ,lol
No matter what time it is,its always time for a nap
Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5233529 10/08/19 04:17 AM
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Exhaustgases Offline
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Yes sorry to hear that. Sounds like another doesn't make sense airplane crash. Where there any witnesses that saw what happened? How far from the runway?

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5234169 10/08/19 06:32 PM
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I’m very sorry for your loss.


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Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5235581 10/10/19 07:18 AM
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Cujet Offline OP
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It now seems the piston powered, Piper Aerostar he was flying was misfueld with Jet-A. Power was lost shortly after takeoff.

I know FBO's love to fuel aircraft at their leisure. I've always insisted on being present when any fueling is happening. For this very reason, and to ensure an accurate quantity.

Last edited by Cujet; 10/10/19 07:23 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5236115 10/10/19 04:41 PM
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nascarnation Offline
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https://www.wthr.com/article/ntsb-report-suggests-wrong-fuel-type-may-be-blame-plane-crash

Sounds like the fueler had to work hard to get it in there also.
Very unfortunate story.

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5236134 10/10/19 04:59 PM
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billt460 Offline
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This once happened to Bob Hoover when they fueled his piston powered Shrike Commander with Jet-A instead of Avgas. He was later responsible for the development of the "Hoover Nozzle" that made it all but impossible for it to happen again. I wonder how they got it into the tank? Not to mention couldn't the guy tell it was a piston aircraft, and not a turbine? It's easy for most to tell, let alone a guy who fuels aircraft for a living.

They also said he asked the pilot TWICE if he wanted jet fuel. Both times he replied, YES. The whole thing sounds really strange.

"The "Hoover Nozzle", used on jet fuel pumps, is designed with a flattened bell shape. It cannot be inserted in the filler neck of a gasoline-powered aircraft with the "Hoover Ring" installed, thus preventing the tank from accidentally being filled with jet fuel.

This system was given this name following an accident in which Hoover was seriously injured, when both engines on his Shrike Commander failed during takeoff. Investigators found that the plane had just been fueled by line personnel who mistook the piston-engine Shrike for a similar turboprop model, filling the tanks with jet fuel instead of avgas (aviation gasoline). There was enough avgas in the fuel system to taxi to the runway and take off, but then the jet fuel was drawn into the engines, causing them to stop.... The nozzle is now required by federal government regulation on jet fuel pumps"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoover

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5236164 10/10/19 05:34 PM
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nascarnation Offline
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I'm not knowledgeable on airframes, but I assume when you put kerosene in a gasser, it runs fine for a short taxi and takeoff and when the carb(s) and lines get purged of the original avgas, the engine stumbles badly.

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5236362 10/10/19 09:01 PM
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Cujet Offline OP
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There is no chance Dan requested jet fuel. None. Dan knew fuels well, he and I had discussed, at length, the high compression pistons in the Extra 300L I operate vs his IO580 powered Extra. Also the Swift fuels 102 octane offering and it’s benefits for high compression air cooled engines. There was no mistake on his part.

The fueler likely said this at the direction of his lawyer.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5236549 10/11/19 03:37 AM
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billt460 Offline
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Originally Posted by Cujet
There is no chance Dan requested jet fuel. None. Dan knew fuels well, he and I had discussed, at length, the high compression pistons in the Extra 300L I operate vs his IO580 powered Extra. Also the Swift fuels 102 octane offering and it’s benefits for high compression air cooled engines. There was no mistake on his part.

The fueler likely said this at the direction of his lawyer.

I can buy into that a lot easier than I can a pilot that owns and flies a piston powered aircraft asking for jet fuel...... Twice. The question still remains, how did he get it in there?

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5236601 10/11/19 06:30 AM
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Sorry for the loss of your friend.

I know of a few folks that have perished in Aerostars.

Sad event in any case.

I prefer self fueling so that I can be the one who scratches the wing and put the correct grade and amount of fuel in.


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Re: Another friend gone [Re: frankbee3] #5236677 10/11/19 08:09 AM
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Cujet Offline OP
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Originally Posted by frankbee3

I prefer self fueling so that I can be the one who scratches the wing and put the correct grade and amount of fuel in.


Yes!!

I advise only a few things to aircraft owners. One is to be there when MX is performed, to take a very active role in maintenance. Another is to always be present when fueling happens. I tell the FBO "will advise" on fuel. Then have them fuel it up while I preflight. Whether it's the G550 or our motorglider, same thing. I guess the crux of my philosophy in aviation is that a pilot/owner must cover the basics properly.

I know they teach pilots to preflight a 172 by checking the safeties on flight control attachment bolts. When was the last time a 172 aileron fell off? Much more likely to take off with the gust lock installed or with insufficient fuel for a trip. And for god's sake make sure the pilots seat is secure so it can't slide back on takeoff. And don't stall it. Etc.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5251856 10/28/19 05:58 AM
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Very sorry to hear. Most planes are obvious as to the type of fuel. Any that could lead to confusion need locking caps then the pilot present with fueling. I’m at the lower tier, with an obvious plane. I’m also usually at the self-serve pump.

Just tragic and seemingly easily preventable.

Re: Another friend gone [Re: Cujet] #5252123 10/28/19 01:11 PM
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Mr. Murphy is alive and well. Had him jump up and bite me more than once around power generation facilities. Here is very good advice for fossil fuel operators. If you start seeing high silica(sand) in your condensate, and the cause evades you for awhile, consider inspecting the hotwell condensate pump cans. I wrote a report for FOMIS about thirty years ago for just such a problem. A weld on a pump sway brace attachment had a porosity which finally opened up after years in service. The 300psig + pressure cut a hole through the can and the can grouting was carried into the condensate. We found buckets of sand in our steam drum before we found out its origin. Cost us over one million in lost revenue. Find a small of stature maintenance volunteer for a visual. Thank you Mr. GC.

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