Red Zone to Green Zone.

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Had to do some net-searching to find-out what happened... For those interested, this is a region in New Zealand stricken by earthquake and deemed too risky to repair.
 
Originally Posted by Silk
An interesting article on what has happened to the land in Christchurch now considered not fit to live on. Good before and after shots, what happens to housing areas when humans leave.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2019/09/christchurch-red-zone-to-green/


Man and nature are always at war. On a very small scale, I see it on my own land. Right now, I am winning, but one day I will sell, or I will grow old and weak, and at some point, the land will win again. This is right and good.

Prior to when I bought the property adjacent to me in 2017:


After I was able to take control of the land from its former owner, and begin beating back the nature, in 2018-2019 (not the SAME angle, but similar just further away):
 
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This seems like a 'duh' to me.

This is BITOG...what happens to your car when you don't take care of it?

What happens to your home when you don't take care of it?

What happens to your land when you don't take care of it?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of any isolated system always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium-the state of maximum entropy of the system. More simply put: the entropy of the universe (the ultimate isolated system) only increases and never decreases.

A simple way to think of the second law of thermodynamics is that a room, if not cleaned and tidied, will invariably become more messy and disorderly with time - regardless of how careful one is to keep it clean. When the room is cleaned, its entropy decreases, but the effort to clean it has resulted in an increase in entropy outside the room that exceeds the entropy lost.

- https://courses.lumenlearning.com/introchem/chapter/the-three-laws-of-thermodynamics/
 
Interesting. In my backyard I have rock walls that someone, years ago, piled up. New England is littered with them. It is interesting to think that the land was once heavily forested, then cleared and probably farmed. Then returned back to woods. Old cellar holes pop up here and there.
 
Originally Posted by DriveHard
This seems like a 'duh' to me.

This is BITOG...what happens to your car when you don't take care of it?

What happens to your home when you don't take care of it?

What happens to your land when you don't take care of it?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of any isolated system always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium-the state of maximum entropy of the system. More simply put: the entropy of the universe (the ultimate isolated system) only increases and never decreases.

A simple way to think of the second law of thermodynamics is that a room, if not cleaned and tidied, will invariably become more messy and disorderly with time - regardless of how careful one is to keep it clean. When the room is cleaned, its entropy decreases, but the effort to clean it has resulted in an increase in entropy outside the room that exceeds the entropy lost.

- https://courses.lumenlearning.com/introchem/chapter/the-three-laws-of-thermodynamics/

this guy gets it
 
Originally Posted by HyundaiAbuser
Originally Posted by DriveHard
This seems like a 'duh' to me.

This is BITOG...what happens to your car when you don't take care of it?

What happens to your home when you don't take care of it?

What happens to your land when you don't take care of it?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of any isolated system always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium-the state of maximum entropy of the system. More simply put: the entropy of the universe (the ultimate isolated system) only increases and never decreases.

A simple way to think of the second law of thermodynamics is that a room, if not cleaned and tidied, will invariably become more messy and disorderly with time - regardless of how careful one is to keep it clean. When the room is cleaned, its entropy decreases, but the effort to clean it has resulted in an increase in entropy outside the room that exceeds the entropy lost.

- https://courses.lumenlearning.com/introchem/chapter/the-three-laws-of-thermodynamics/

this guy gets it


I wish my wife would get it. I try explaining to her that it's perfectly normal and natural for my work area and my part of the living room to be messy. She still wants to go against the laws of physics.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Not sure how nature taking over is the same as entropy. Life is not chaos.
So if the entropy (chaos) only increases, life would have never even started, never mind sustained itself over billions of years.

Entropy is absolutely increasing. Everything dies including life, the stars, everything. It is all trending to a high entropy, zero energy heat death. You really believe it is otherwise? If it is not that way then the second law of thermodynamics is invalid.

What makes such a postulate difficult to defend is that life would cease if it were any other way. We need the universe to decay otherwise nothing would work nor be predictable. If the sun wasn't decaying to a lower energy state, how would the Earth (or you) survive?
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Not sure how nature taking over is the same as entropy. Life is not chaos.
So if the entropy (chaos) only increases, life would have never even started, never mind sustained itself over billions of years.

Entropy is absolutely increasing. Everything dies including life, the stars, everything. It is all trending to a high entropy, zero energy heat death. You really believe it is otherwise? If it is not that way then the second law of thermodynamics is invalid.

What makes such a postulate difficult to defend is that life would cease if it were any other way. We need the universe to decay otherwise nothing would work nor be predictable. If the sun wasn't decaying to a lower energy state, how would the Earth (or you) survive?


Are you or any other form of life more than 100% efficient? If not...we are slowly consuming the resources that keep us alive. At some point the resources run out...
 
All right, but I'm confused as to what that has to do with entropy. No physical process is ever 100% efficient, most are far less. The sun is what, less than 1% efficient? And it gets a heck of a lot worse if you then look at how much of the radiation actually falls on the Earth's surface.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Not sure how nature taking over is the same as entropy. Life is not chaos.
So if the entropy (chaos) only increases, life would have never even started, never mind sustained itself over billions of years.

Entropy is absolutely increasing. Everything dies including life, the stars, everything. It is all trending to a high entropy, zero energy heat death. You really believe it is otherwise? If it is not that way then the second law of thermodynamics is invalid.

What makes such a postulate difficult to defend is that life would cease if it were any other way. We need the universe to decay otherwise nothing would work nor be predictable. If the sun wasn't decaying to a lower energy state, how would the Earth (or you) survive?



If the entropy is the force that brings chaos out of order, then there must be a force that brings order out of chaos to balance things out. If the big bang brought chaos and entropy was the only force at play, life, stars, galaxies etc. none of that would even get a chance to form.

Another view could be that the universe was created with everything already in its place and it started decaing from there. Like that clean room example. But someone had to build the room in the first place in order for entropy to happen to it.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
If the entropy is the force that brings chaos out of order, then there must be a force that brings order out of chaos to balance things out. If the big bang brought chaos and entropy was the only force at play, life, stars, galaxies etc. none of that would even get a chance to form.

Another view could be that the universe was created with everything already in its place and it started decaing from there. Like that clean room example. But someone had to build the room in the first place in order for entropy to happen to it.

I'm not sure how most of that is relevant, for one thing entropy doesn't bring chaos out of order (or "bring" anything out of anything else for that matter), entropy is entropy. It isn't a force.

There are many things that do bring order out of chaos, you and I do it all the time. But that is a localized phenomenon since the overall state of the universe trends to higher entropy and reversing that requires a net energy input (is it effortless to clean up and organize your garage?) Local is one thing, global is entirely another. You seem to ignore that unless entropy increases there are no repeatable physical laws and consequently no life. If the entropy of the sun does not increase it cannot radiate. Some people look at entropy as a universal "bad thing" when in fact if it wasn't this way no one would exist. The second law of thermodynamics is one reason why we have repeatable physical laws and beneficial processes for life. Without increasing entropy even our cells could not produce energy since the Krebs cycle is based on higher entropy with a subsequent release of heat energy.
 
Entropy like you said is decay. Breaking down. If you have a cell, thats order. Elements were bound together to form it. When that cell dies it breaks down back to the elements that formed it, that's chaos. It's pretty much that simple.

And while our laws of physics work in our little closed system, I'm not sure we can apply the same thing to the whole universe.

I fully understand that on earth if it weren't for the external source of energy provided by our sun, the entropy would ensure our planet is a dead rock. But if the same applies to the whole universe, where does it get its energy from?
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Entropy like you said is decay. Breaking down. If you have a cell, thats order. Elements were bound together to form it. When that cell dies it breaks down back to the elements that formed it, that's chaos. It's pretty much that simple.

And while our laws of physics work in our little closed system, I'm not sure we can apply the same thing to the whole universe.

I fully understand that on earth if it weren't for the external source of energy provided by our sun, the entropy would ensure our planet is a dead rock. But if the same applies to the whole universe, where does it get its energy from?



Look up cosmic inflation. That state existed for a while way way back.

Also a few misconceptions, even without the sun, you'd still have some heat because the earth is also made up of some radioactive materials and you have the energy from the core of the earth. Of course it wouldn't be as hot without the sun. That's true of other planets out there too, they're hotter than the energy they get from the sun.

There's also some strange things out there in quantum mechanics, there's vacuum energy where energy appears and disappears, it's the basis for Hawking radiation. Then there's also dark energy which causes the acceleration of the universe and is pushing us toward the heat death of the universe. At the heat death, even time will stop because there's not enough energy left in the universe to measure time.
 
Chances that dark energy is real vs our own construct to make our current models work are probably 50/50.

Cosmic inflation could explain entropy because as it expands it should cool down. But again, this is only based on what we can observe on our own little planet, how it really applies to the whole universe could be a totally different matter.

Hence I always question some definitive statements that are applied to the universe. Our glimpse at universe is:
1. Extremely, extremely short.
2. We look at distant past, the only exception is our own solar system.
3. Limited by the speed of light.
4. We have not observed it long enough.

That's like drawing conclusions about the actors and places shown in a movie after having seen it for a fraction of a second, somewhere in the middle of it.

And that fraction of a second is far, far more than our own existence when compared to the age of the universe.
 
Cosmic inflation? Entropy started at T>0, before cosmic inflation occurred.

I guess the bottom line is that if you really don't want to believe that the whole of the universe is subject to the second law of thermodynamics then no one is going to convince you otherwise. But you do have to understand that it corrupts the entire visible cosmic structure as well as invalidates nearly every single physical law in existence. None of the things in your list have an impact on that fact.

Is your real problem that such a universe isn't "perfect" from your view? That is another subject altogether. But you're going to have to explain how the sun and every star radiates without increasing entropy. Do you think the method of heat liberation of the stars changed somehow? Was it not originally based on nuclear fusion with a subsequent decrease in mass?
 
Visible cosmic structure is already "corrupt", hence the concept of dark matter was introduced.

So if dark matter makes things work on a universal scale, how come our laws of physics don't require it here on earth or our solar system?

Can you at least entertain the idea that just because entropy works in our own little backyard called the solar system, it may not be applied to the whole universe?.

You seem to think that I'm rejecting the notion by simply questioning it. This could not be further from the truth.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Can you at least entertain the idea that just because entropy works in our own little backyard called the solar system, it may not be applied to the whole universe?.

I'd love to entertain that. Can you provide one instance where the second law of thermodynamics does not apply? Even when cleaning up and organizing your garage it still applies in a global sense. If you really want to prove it does not exist in the universe as a whole you'll also have to address the COBE results. If there is no universal entropy, shouldn't the background radiation of the entire universe stay constant after the initial event? Even worse, if it did not cool then elementary particles could not have formed, and afterwards the matter we see.
 
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