Crash Tests: Old vs New

[RayCJ]

The other thread about the Dearborn plant had me thinking about an accident we had when the whole family was in the car. It was a 1956 Chevy. We were stopped and got rear-ended then shoved into a stopped bus in front of us. Nobody wore seatbelts back then. My father got bruised by the steering wheel, grandmother in the back seat got broken ribs, mother got bruised by the dashboard. All three of us little kids bounced around the inside of the car but we were fine.

As much as I like to reminisce about those old cars, it's a miracle we survived them. My first car was a 67 Plymouth Fury III. Bias ply tires and manual drum brakes on all 4's. Rusty leaf springs and mushy shocks. Now that I think about it, every ride in the rain and Chicago ice and now was a total crapshoot.

Crash survivability: I'll take a new car any day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

 

[billt460]

I always liked the dashboard mounted ignition keys that stuck out..... That were right in line with your kneecap. Naturally, this was when lap only seatbelts were an extra cost option that no one sprang for.

 

[supton]

Heck at times I think about trading out of my '99. It may have ABS but it doesn't have side impact air bags. I worry less about those new-fangled offset tests and more about T-bone accidents. I feel like, as the typical person who thinks they are above average, that I won't have a head-on collision 'cuz I'm always paying attention. But a t-bone is more apt to be the fault of the other guy, and something I have less control over.

Everyone's got to pick their risk level, I guess.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by billt460
I always liked the dashboard mounted ignition keys that stuck out..... That were right in line with your kneecap. Naturally, this was when lap only seatbelts were an extra cost option that no one sprang for.


I worked at a Texaco station in the mid-70's and tow trucks would sometimes temporarily drop-off a wreck on our lot. Always an eye-opening sight. Seeing two knee indentations rammed 8" into the dash. ...And of course the bent steering wheel and the head hole in the driver-side windshield... and the passenger side where the head hit half-way on the windshield and half-way on the roof-line of the car. Seeing the roof-line pushed-out 4-5 inches with clumps of hair still stuck in the roof-liner.

Yeah, those old cars were great!

It was a long learning process but cars now are darn incredible really.

 

[Wheel]

My Dad and I had a 53 Willys/Jeep pickup. We lost the brakes one day and stopped by dropping the snowplow. The worst of our lumps was a cut up hand that smashed the speedometer in the dash. Glad we weren't going very fast. The metal dash defroster vents always looked like they wanted a chunk of my forehead after that.

I do miss the Jeep, but I'm probably safer elsewhere.

 

[drtyler]

After seeing a '17 GTI t-boned in the driver door and fender by a car traveling 55 and the occupant only having minor injuries, I'm a believer in the safety of the modern cars and side + frontal air bags.

Luck plays a part in it as well, but modern cars (even the small ones) are surprisingly safe.

 

[JLTD]

Passenger compartment integrity is Huge.

 

[meep]

Yeah I reminisce about the old stuff, but once you sit in it and see how much isn't there, I can't really go back too far. I remember 1997 seemed like the "safest ever" compared to everything I grew up with, and now whenever I sit in anything pre '00 just remark at how less metal is around the cabin.

As a volvo fan, I have to wonder if they still look at real world crash results. Used to, they sent engineers out to look at wrecked cars to see how they actually stood up, and based their future models on that data. It wasn't just lab tests. I wonder if (hope) they still do.

 

[Andrew1972]

The safety more related to the design of vehicle now bs past in terms of structure. The airbags and nannies are nice plillows.

 

[AC1DD]

The thing is that there is law of diminishing returns, we've already long ago passed it.

Structural integrity is one of the most important aspects of occupant safety. The airbags now seem like a worse danger than the potential accident.

I say let the consumer decide if they want all the other safety items and nannies and make them options. I don't want or need to pay for these things, I belt up.
The only things I want to pay for is structural integrity and belting. That's it.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by meep
Yeah I reminisce about the old stuff, but once you sit in it and see how much isn't there, I can't really go back too far. I remember 1997 seemed like the "safest ever" compared to everything I grew up with, and now whenever I sit in anything pre '00 just remark at how less metal is around the cabin.

As a volvo fan, I have to wonder if they still look at real world crash results. Used to, they sent engineers out to look at wrecked cars to see how they actually stood up, and based their future models on that data. It wasn't just lab tests. I wonder if (hope) they still do.


For a couple summers, I got around in a 67 Dodge Dart with a 225 slant 6. Bias ply tires, 4 wheel drum brakes. No power steering, no power brakes... no power anything! I screwed an 8-Track right to the bottom of the dash. Most of the dash was metal except for ridge-line on the top front part. I loved that car. It was nothing more than a tin can with 4 wheels really. Me and the BIL were cruising down the hwy at 70 MPH and the front tire blew-out. We hit the curb-part of an underpass platform that had support columns for the expressway above us. The curb pretty-much ripped the passenger fender off along with the upper and lower control arms. We both had bruises all over the place and were walking around like old men for a week. Both of us had sore necks and headaches for days. I think our heads hit the ceiling. No seatbelts. We got lucky the curb slowed us down instead of going smack into the highway support column. We probably came pretty close to buy'n the farm that day.

I didn't think of it back then but most cars were death-traps until the 90's.

 

[PimTac]

I was in a older vehicle in the sixties that was involved in a crash. Our speed was around 30mph. The brakes were applied just before impact. The other car pulled out right in front of us and hit the passenger front corner.

We all flew around the car. It had no seat belts. Everything inside was metal. I could easily see how a higher speed crash would cause injuries or worse. Those of us old enough will remember people that were injured or killed by hitting a tree or another vehicle or object. Speed didn't have to be that fast. Frontal impact with the hard steering wheel or metal dashboard or the windshield was common and head injuries occurred. Other injuries such as severely broken legs and back injuries happened back then as well and it should be considered that the freeway system was not fully developed yet.

The crash standards were and are still a progression. Seat belts came first. Soft top dashboards were developed and then the plastic knee areas. Soft steering wheels, designed crush zones, and air bags have all contributed.

The severity of the impact force has been reduced. That is the key to surviving a major crash.

I would take a modern car over a old one anyway when it comes to crash protection. The old cars were built like tanks and when two tanks hit each other the result was usually bad.

 

[WylieCoyote]

There's been some amazing science invested in making modern cars "soft, yet strong". From the front bumper to the cowl is designed to fold and absorb the crash, while the cabin is designed to retain its shape. Very different from yesteryear, when the whole thing would fold like a book of matches in a crash, yet a 5 mph parking lot bump would yield no damage to the huge, chromed-steel bumpers. And seatbelts? The lap belts in my Mom's '72 Monte Carlo were rolled up and tucked into the seats. I don't know how many times my Mom reached over to push me into the seat back when she had to slam on the brakes.

You could do some serious damage to the tankers of my childhood, and drive them home. My brother proved that several times in his '65 Oldsmobile. With all the space between the nose and the radiator, and the additional space between the radiator and fan, you could fix it at your leisure. A parking lot bump in a modern car will be a tow, and $2,000 minimum to fix. The price we pay not to die.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by RayCJ
... For a couple summers, I got around in a 67 Dodge Dart with a 225 slant 6. Bias ply tires, 4 wheel drum brakes. No power steering, no power brakes... no power anything! ... The curb pretty-much ripped the passenger fender off along with the upper and lower control arms. We both had bruises all over the place and were walking around like old men for a week. Both of us had sore necks and headaches for days. I think our heads hit the ceiling. No seatbelts. ...
In that kind of situation, radial tires (assuming one failed similarly), power steering, or power disk brakes wouldn't have helped you much. Wearing your seat belts might've avoided most of your injuries, even in a '67 Dart.

I was front passenger in a '56 Chevy when '60 Chevy turned left across our path. Fortunately, braking reduced our speed to pretty low by the time of impact. I bumped my head on the sun visor. The right front suspension was damaged, but repaired by owner.

 

[DweezilAZ]

Originally Posted by RayCJ
The other thread about the Dearborn plant had me thinking about an accident we had when the whole family was in the car. It was a 1956 Chevy. We were stopped and got rear-ended then shoved into a stopped bus in front of us. Nobody wore seatbelts back then. My father got bruised by the steering wheel, grandmother in the back seat got broken ribs, mother got bruised by the dashboard. All three of us little kids bounced around the inside of the car but we were fine.

As much as I like to reminisce about those old cars, it's a miracle we survived them. My first car was a 67 Plymouth Fury III. Bias ply tires and manual drum brakes on all 4's. Rusty leaf springs and mushy shocks. Now that I think about it, every ride in the rain and Chicago ice and now was a total crapshoot.

Crash survivability: I'll take a new car any day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

Carnival stunt for the IIHS.

My response to that was: "Well, D'uh".

Let's see the crash between a 59 Chevy and an 1909 Buick if that's the way the game is being played.

Totally unnecessary waste of an old car. Pure click bait and produced just for an audience primed on yellow journalism. Stating the obvious, such deep observation.

People survived, lived their lives built an economy and a country with out belts, bags, buzzers 5 MPH bumpers, nanny driving systems. Most of the cars and trucks they did that in wore out, fell apart or rusted away and were junked.

Amazing how that 59 Chevy went 50 years without ever encountering an accident as portrayed in that silly video.

Also remember: all the crash stats of a particular vehicle count only among those vehicles within that weight class. No one drives like that. Every accident is as individual as a fingerprint. No safety equipment will ever exist that edits out all of the "what if" variables.

And bless those hundreds of people killed by air bags from the beginning of their development. Just collateral damage I guess.

Funny. I had a car with ABS, traction control, disc brakes, air bags, belts, buzzers, radial tires. Got rear ended in the left turn lane sitting waiting for the red arrow to change at 4:30 in the morning.

Car was totalled. Other than the lap and shoulder belts a bloody lot of good all that equipment did. And I couldn't have been less at fault.

That result would have been the same had I been in the 86 Olds or my 63 Valiant [with seat belts].

And still, 50 years after the first mandated safety laws, half of all motor vehicle deaths are attributable to the occupants not wearing seat belts. Add booze. Add speeding.

Don't do any of that and one's chances of being killed in an accident have been lowered by a sizable amount.

 

[DweezilAZ]

Originally Posted by RayCJ

Originally Posted by meep
Yeah I reminisce about the old stuff, but once you sit in it and see how much isn't there, I can't really go back too far. I remember 1997 seemed like the "safest ever" compared to everything I grew up with, and now whenever I sit in anything pre '00 just remark at how less metal is around the cabin.

As a volvo fan, I have to wonder if they still look at real world crash results. Used to, they sent engineers out to look at wrecked cars to see how they actually stood up, and based their future models on that data. It wasn't just lab tests. I wonder if (hope) they still do.


For a couple summers, I got around in a 67 Dodge Dart with a 225 slant 6. Bias ply tires, 4 wheel drum brakes. No power steering, no power brakes... no power anything! I screwed an 8-Track right to the bottom of the dash. Most of the dash was metal except for ridge-line on the top front part. I loved that car. It was nothing more than a tin can with 4 wheels really. Me and the BIL were cruising down the hwy at 70 MPH and the front tire blew-out. We hit the curb-part of an underpass platform that had support columns for the expressway above us. The curb pretty-much ripped the passenger fender off along with the upper and lower control arms. We both had bruises all over the place and were walking around like old men for a week. Both of us had sore necks and headaches for days. I think our heads hit the ceiling. No seatbelts. We got lucky the curb slowed us down instead of going smack into the highway support column. We probably came pretty close to buy'n the farm that day.

I didn't think of it back then but most cars were death-traps until the 90's.

Death traps ? Millions of people drove billions of miles in them without incident. I would bet 90% of them were driven till they were scrapped, rusted out or just plain died. Don't be so hysterical. These "death trap" cars were in daily use in one form or another for decades.

I've driven a 63 Valiant with unboosted steering and brakes [boost on brakes only lowers effort needed not braking ability] for nearly 40 years, most of those in daily use in LA. It has seat belts. I use them. I have never felt "unsafe" in it and have never considered it a death trap.

I am aware of it's limitations, however, and also maintain it [tires, brakes, steering] to keep it ready to drive at any moment. It has to be driven consciously as it's also a three speed manual and it takes effort and awareness.

That 1997 model is still just as safe as the day it was sold if maintained. Because NHTSA and IIHS have added new tests and new versions of old tests does not make it any less "safe".

It will always be the nut behind the wheel providing the safety "X factor" that no amount of "saaaafety" equipment will keep from injuring themselves.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted by DweezilAZ

Carnival stunt for the IIHS.

My response to that was: "Well, D'uh".

Let's see the crash between a 59 Chevy and an 1909 Buick if that's the way the game is being played.

Totally unnecessary waste of an old car. Pure click bait and produced just for an audience primed on yellow journalism. Stating the obvious, such deep observation.

People survived, lived their lives built an economy and a country with out belts, bags, buzzers 5 MPH bumpers, nanny driving systems. Most of the cars and trucks they did that in wore out, fell apart or rusted away and were junked.

Amazing how that 59 Chevy went 50 years without ever encountering an accident as portrayed in that silly video.

Also remember: all the crash stats of a particular vehicle count only among those vehicles within that weight class. No one drives like that. Every accident is as individual as a fingerprint. No safety equipment will ever exist that edits out all of the "what if" variables.

And bless those hundreds of people killed by air bags from the beginning of their development. Just collateral damage I guess.

Funny. I had a car with ABS, traction control, disc brakes, air bags, belts, buzzers, radial tires. Got rear ended in the left turn lane sitting waiting for the red arrow to change at 4:30 in the morning.

Car was totalled. Other than the lap and shoulder belts a bloody lot of good all that equipment did. And I couldn't have been less at fault.

That result would have been the same had I been in the 86 Olds or my 63 Valiant [with seat belts].

And still, 50 years after the first mandated safety laws, half of all motor vehicle deaths are attributable to the occupants not wearing seat belts. Add booze. Add speeding.

Don't do any of that and one's chances of being killed in an accident have been lowered by a sizable amount.



You are overthinking this.

1) They can use a 59 Chevy with a head gasket problem or some overheating issue for the test.
2) Collectible's value is about demand and supply. I bet you crashing the 59 Chevy "for science" will improve the collectible value of the N-1 59 Chevy out there by more than that. This is how cash for clunker works in math. I know it is a waste mechanically but financially it is not.
3) If you are buying a car with safety rating in mind, you are likely going to wear seat belt no matter what car you drive. The safety rating is for people who wear seat belt, not people who don't.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by DweezilAZ
Originally Posted by RayCJ

Originally Posted by meep
Yeah I reminisce about the old stuff, but once you sit in it and see how much isn't there, I can't really go back too far. I remember 1997 seemed like the "safest ever" compared to everything I grew up with, and now whenever I sit in anything pre '00 just remark at how less metal is around the cabin.

As a volvo fan, I have to wonder if they still look at real world crash results. Used to, they sent engineers out to look at wrecked cars to see how they actually stood up, and based their future models on that data. It wasn't just lab tests. I wonder if (hope) they still do.


For a couple summers, I got around in a 67 Dodge Dart with a 225 slant 6. Bias ply tires, 4 wheel drum brakes. No power steering, no power brakes... no power anything! I screwed an 8-Track right to the bottom of the dash. Most of the dash was metal except for ridge-line on the top front part. I loved that car. It was nothing more than a tin can with 4 wheels really. Me and the BIL were cruising down the hwy at 70 MPH and the front tire blew-out. We hit the curb-part of an underpass platform that had support columns for the expressway above us. The curb pretty-much ripped the passenger fender off along with the upper and lower control arms. We both had bruises all over the place and were walking around like old men for a week. Both of us had sore necks and headaches for days. I think our heads hit the ceiling. No seatbelts. We got lucky the curb slowed us down instead of going smack into the highway support column. We probably came pretty close to buy'n the farm that day.

I didn't think of it back then but most cars were death-traps until the 90's.

Death traps ? Millions of people drove billions of miles in them without incident. I would bet 90% of them were driven till they were scrapped, rusted out or just plain died. Don't be so hysterical. These "death trap" cars were in daily use in one form or another for decades.

I've driven a 63 Valiant with unboosted steering and brakes [boost on brakes only lowers effort needed not braking ability] for nearly 40 years, most of those in daily use in LA. It has seat belts. I use them. I have never felt "unsafe" in it and have never considered it a death trap.

I am aware of it's limitations, however, and also maintain it [tires, brakes, steering] to keep it ready to drive at any moment. It has to be driven consciously as it's also a three speed manual and it takes effort and awareness.

That 1997 model is still just as safe as the day it was sold if maintained. Because NHTSA and IIHS have added new tests and new versions of old tests does not make it any less "safe".

It will always be the nut behind the wheel providing the safety "X factor" that no amount of "saaaafety" equipment will keep from injuring themselves.



Highway accident statistic information is probably some of the most reliable data you can ever hope to find. You can look at the State Police Department accident statistics for every State for as long as they've been logging data -and you will see that those older cars were death traps. Have a look at the number of deaths per capita and "per miles driven". It was off the charts in the early days and has dwindled to very low levels in recent times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

Sorry, your diatribe doesn't pass the sniff test nor does it pass muster.

Have a nice day.

 

[MCompact]

You should have heard the bleating from some of the hand-wringing bed wetters when they learned my son's first car-a 1975 2002-had no nannies or airbags(but DID have brand new three-point belts and inertia reels). My wife and I agreed that two days at the BMW Performance Center Driving School and a day at Street Survival was a better strategy than tottering around with no driving skills in a "safe" car.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by MCompact
You should have heard the bleating from some of the hand-wringing bed wetters when they learned my son's first car-a 1975 2002-had no nannies or airbags(but DID have brand new three-point belts and inertia reels). My wife and I agreed that two days at the BMW Performance Center Driving School and a day at Street Survival was a better strategy than tottering around with no driving skills in a "safe" car.



If everyone were required to take a street performance driving course, the roads would be much safer places indeed. I've taken a few levels of HPDE courses over the years. -Really good stuff. Unfortunately, most States hand-out driver's licenses the same way the Costco greeter hands-out sales flyers. It's great that you put your son thru some extra training!

Defensive driving is something most good drivers try to do. The game gets a little harder when you add drunk drivers and total fools into the equation. Matter of fact, I'd say good drivers are out-numbered by the bad ones.

In 1990, my dad was sitting at a red light and a car from nowhere veers head-on right into him at about 40MPH. It was a priest on his way home from a funeral -and he fell asleep behind the wheel. All the defensive driving methods in the world can't help when your car is not moving and you got nowhere to go. Dad got lucky that day, his airbag deployed. Something like this is right up there with a deer jumping in front of you... It's instant and comes out of nowhere.... your butt cheeks don't even have a chance to pucker! Defending yourself against an auto-pilot Tesla in the middle of a software reboot is going to be interesting when we cross that bridge.

Yeah, I've taken plenty of HPDE courses and manage to get to the track every now and then. Still though, I'll take my 2018 with all the basic safety equipment. For me personally, I'm still not on board with the brake-assist stuff though; but given the way some people drive it might help prevent damage to someone else.