Varnish and Gunk

[Phishin]

I just recently had the engine timing chain assembly replaced on my 2010 Accord at 200k miles. I walked into the shop during the repair and saw a fair amount of varnish and maybe even some slight gunk around the cams under the valve cover.

Nothing of major concern, and there wasn't any "sludge" issue. But I'd like to address the situation and try to combat it as I plan to drive this Accord to the 400-500k mile mark.

The car has mostly seen PU, M1, and recently Valvoline MaxLife synthetic oils. I've been running 8-10k mile OCI's and this car is driven >90% on the highway for long trips.

What should my plan be to clean up the internals a bit?? I just changed the oil after the repair. This being a short 5K mile OCI. I plan to run a 4-5 OCI's around the 5k mile mark to help with clean up.
I poured in M1 5w30 High Mileage EP and a FU filter.

I ran a can of BG's EPR (#109) as a flush before the oil change. I have another can on hand. I also have 2 cans of Liqui Moly Pro-Line Engine flush. So my plan was to run 4 OCI's at 5k miles and using the engine flush at end of each of these oil changes.
Good plan??? Can you think of anything else I might do or use???

What about a few OCI's with Red Line or something else that's highly polar???

 

[supton]

I wonder if it matters? I mean, runs good, and after 200k it's not "major concern". So the oils are working more or less properly.

Wondering if just running shorter OCI's would nip the problem in the bud or reduce the buildup to a slower rate, thus allowing another 200k.

 

[krismoriah72]

Kreen

Here is a pretty good thread on it

Kreen Update

I am intrigued by Kreen but the only valid candidate I have is my 2002 Civic with 186,000 miles that I bought new. It has had 5000 mile OCI's with conventional oils and does not appear to be sludged or varnished from what little I can see through the oil filler cap. But I am willing to give...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Once varnish is baked on, there's not much short of a solvent that is likely to put a significant dent in it. Oils like Redline, Mobil 1, Pennzoil Ultra Platinum are great about keeping things in suspension on a new/clean engine, but the compounds likely do not have enough oomph to remove accumulated varnish. The difference between "sludge" and varnish is mainly the depth of the accumulation; under most sludge there is likely a layer of varnish as well. Most engine flushes can only attack the stuff that's "proud" of the surface IMO, and can't really get the stuff that's directly bonded to the block, head, piston ring grooves, passageways, etc. The extremely thin layer of varnish simply has too direct a bond to the base metal to be removed without a solvent.

Which leaves basically one of two options from my research. You've got Kreen, which is a solvent and can break down the bonds that cause carbon agglomeration and the mechanism that forms the varnish, or Valvoline Premium Blue Restore, which is formulated with significantly different compounds than any other off-the-shelf oil that I am aware of. Cummins and Valvoline specifically designed it to be able to attack varnish in the piston ring pack, which is most assuredly the most difficult area to clean without engine disassembly. And don't take my word on this; I base these recommendations on two of the board's more prominent members, Trav (Kreen) and JAG (VPB Restore).

Kreen should be used by adding a pint to the oil, driving 1000 miles, and then adding the other pint to the oil again. It is consumed/evaporated in use, so it's up to you if you slightly underfill on oil, or add the pint on top of a full sump. Restore is used as a full OCI with no other adds, and as Cummins points out for its use on ISX engines, you need to make sure you have a filter that is highly efficient and has high capacity to keep all the crud it frees up in the filter instead of recirculating. Kreen is obviously a much cheaper route; ~$17 for a quart vs. $76/gallon for Restore.

IMO, you won't cause any damage with your BG or Pro-Line flushes, but you also won't really see any measurable results, either. That being said, surface varnish alone has never really been shown to cause problems on its own, and as long as you keep using big-name synthetics it's not really likely to ever cause problems or get significantly worse. Your engine has made it 200k on what you've been doing; short of spending significant money you're not likely to see big improvements in the varnish, nor are you likely to extend the life of your engine by undertaking the cleaning, either. I say let it ride... other mechanical components will fail and cause you to replace the vehicle before the engine does.

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted by krismoriah72
Kreen

Here is a pretty good thread on it

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2573551/1


This car seen a 2 doses of Kreen in the oil (16 oz) and a 16 oz in the gas tank at about 120k miles.....I still have a little less than a quart left.

I could order another few quarts as well. It's worth a shot.

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by supton
I wonder if it matters? I mean, runs good, and after 200k it's not "major concern". So the oils are working more or less properly.

Wondering if just running shorter OCI's would nip the problem in the bud or reduce the buildup to a slower rate, thus allowing another 200k.



Pretty much what I was thinking .......

 

[WobblyElvis]

The only thing I would do is shorten the OCIs during the Winter months. Don't worry about it!

 

[MarkM66]

Unless you plan to remove the valve cover, will you be able to see if anything is working that you decide to do?

First thought is to just reduce your OCI.

 

[2004tdigls]

my first thought would be to try an HDEO, this oil is excellent

https://rotella.shell.com/en_us/pro...cle-5w-30-full-synthetic-heavy-duty.html

 

[krismoriah72]

Since you have a K24.. and are wanting to go upwards of 400K..here is some inspiration. The post is 5yrs old..

https://www.reddit.com/r/Honda/comments/20yx2p/all_these_high_mileage_cars_make_me_laugh_i_give/

 

[LeoStrop]

Your plan and all of the above sounds like a good choice.

I would also reduce the next 4 OCI's to 3k , and cut each filter to see what method is working best.

 

[MarkM66]

Are you suppose to change the timing chain at 200k miles?

 

[Job]

Varnish on parts under the valve cover isn't doing anything harmful. Maybe more frequent oil changes and use a high quality air filter if the timing chain was worn out needing replacement.

 

[CT8]

Do the short oil changes, then take the engine apart again and post back the results,

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo

IMO, you won't cause any damage with your BG or Pro-Line flushes, but you also won't really see any measurable results, either. That being said, surface varnish alone has never really been shown to cause problems on its own, and as long as you keep using big-name synthetics it's not really likely to ever cause problems or get significantly worse. Your engine has made it 200k on what you've been doing; short of spending significant money you're not likely to see big improvements in the varnish, nor are you likely to extend the life of your engine by undertaking the cleaning, either. I say let it ride... other mechanical components will fail and cause you to replace the vehicle before the engine does.

Well said... I would add that varnish can effect tolerances and encapsulate rubber seals preventing them from being properly lubricated. This in turn can hasten the demise of the seal. The same effect can be said of sludge, this is why HiMi formulas will contain higher levels of detergents so they can eat away at the sludge that might be keeping seals from receiving adequate lubrication and the SCA's can then do their job.

This..

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=570474

.. and this

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/268/oil-sludge-varnish

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted by MarkM66
Are you suppose to change the timing chain at 200k miles?


No... But the VTC Actuator has been giving my trouble for years (cold start up rattle). I think this contributed to the car being out of time.(ie, timing chain stretched)

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by Pablo
Amsoil leaves a slight yellowish brown "stain" - on Al surfaces after years of use. I believe as Terry said, it's mostly EP adds. In my experience AutoRx will NOT even touch this coating. (Even after 3+ treatments and the car running better than new)

It is definitely NOT something to worry about. It does bother me when people categorize this coating with real "varnish", which is quickly (mentally) associated with sludge.


This is what I was talking about. People generally associate the brownish tinge under the valvecover area as "varnish" when it is not actually so. So that was my point to the OP, until you really know if it's "varnish" or "EP fallout" it doesn't really make sense to try to attack it... and since he's been using syn oils for a long time, it's probably more EP fallout.

This is varnish, and could become a concern:

This is EP fallout, and probably more likely what OP is considering varnish:

 

[WyrTwister]

What is EP fall out ?

Thanks ,

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The extreme pressure agents in the oil which help prevent direct metal-to-metal contact in areas where the minimum oil film thickness cannot be maintained.

 

[Phishin]

SubieRubyRoo.....

It's actually somewhere between those 2 pics