Sure you could use anti-seize on your studs, but???

[andyd]

Obligatory Old guy 'splain. I used chassis lube for 20 yrs on BMW lug bolts, on the hub and the wheel too. The 17mm speed wrench.worked fine. A stomp to loosen. 3 stage star pattern to tighten with a stomp.. No clue as to spec , probably around 80 lb/' for a 12mm . Only sheared one. in 20 yrs. Never lost any. Rassen frassen idjit I bought the Rat from stretched 3 wheel studs. on the LF. Musta used air which I don't have.

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted by Traction
Originally Posted by hallstevenson
You've stated your belief. Leave it at that and move on. 98% of folks are going to keep doing what they've been doing - "I've been doing it for 42 years with no issues". If you convince the other 2%, be happy.

Did you even read the charts at the top of the page? Maybe not an issue, but that still doesn't always make it right.

Yes I did and no offense, I don't care about your training manual in this context. What part of my explanation that no matter what you say, some folks don't care or don't believe you or will just keep doing what they do. FWIW, I don't put anti-seize on wheel studs....

 

[philipp10]

I agree lube will make a bolt become over-tightened. Many areas under your car can and do become wet from spilled or leaking oil. Isn't this a risk in general with a car since it does leak oil?

From what I have heard, lube can cause you to over-tighten by about 1.2 times. So why not just lower the specified torque by about 20% on fasteners that are lubed?

Seems so simple, what am I missing here?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by philipp10
From what I have heard, lube can cause you to over-tighten by about 1.2 times. So why not just lower the specified torque by about 20% on fasteners that are lubed? Seems so simple, what am I missing here?

Bingo, we have a winner! I just don't get all this talk about "over torqueing" every time this topic comes up. There are charts that tell you what percentage to reduce torque on a given size thread if that thread is lubricated. Use it, along with a torque wrench, and what's the problem?

 

[geeman789]

Funny how various critical engine bolts are usually torqued WET. And your drain plug is always WET.

Dry studs and lug nuts might be just fine on a new car. But as soon as some dirt, wear and corrosion start happening, the dry torque spec becomes as big a guess as the wet torque spec ... at least the wet torque is consistent.

And as many have stated, throw salt in the mix, and soon dry studs start BREAKING, and that's no fun.

 

[AVB]

Originally Posted by Traction
The thread title said "Sure you could use anti-seize". But everyone still seems to totally ignore the effect on wheel clamping force, which is going to over-stretch the wheel stud no matter how you justify it when using lube. If it make the nut easier to turn, it is going to turn much further before it comes up to the specified torque with the stud getting longer. How can that be the best practice, especially on cars that have quality plated studs, and lug nuts that still look new for years. Rusty, poorly maintained fasteners, all bets are off. Then it's always more of just a guess when using lube. I've torqued well over 50,000 lug nuts in the last 17 years, and have seen plenty of issues, and depending on the condition of the fastener, sometimes like on a German wheel bolt a little anti-seize is needed, but not every car needs it. It's mostly common sense.

I just don't think it's a big deal. I think a lubed and torqued stud is going to suffer less damage than a stud that has an impact used on wet or dry. We don't even know how close the lugnut torque spec is to the yeild point of the stud. Overall I think if you are taking the time to torque the lugnuts it really doesn't matter if you lube them or not.

 

[edwardh1]

what does Toyota do at new car assembly?

 

[SubLGT]

Wheel clamping forces would be more consistent if OEMs specified a torque-angle value, instead of a simple ft-lb number.

 

[Kestas]

I believe torque + angle is for stretch (TTY) bolts. Not good for multiple uses.

 

[LeakySeals]

I live in the salt belt and I really don't see much rust on the studs. If I do for some reason I'll spray some regular WD-40 on a rag and wipe them. It's pretty good for taking off rust. Then blast carb or brake cleaner on to dry and clean threads. I don't think too much about stretching because I always, always use a torque wrench. It really does make a difference keep that 70 mph vibration to a minimum. Replacing the rotor before it gets crusty helps too but that's another thread. I'm assuming the book has the torque set for a new dry lug nut/stud with no lubrication, no rust.

 

[Excel]

most torque specs on pass cars have a very wide margin of error
100Ft Lbs dry vs oil wont save your wheels from falling off

I would also argue that the percentage of tire jokeys just air gun the wheels on
"TIGHT" and as annoying and unprofessional as that is we dont have an epidemic of
loose wheels on the hwys

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted by Excel
most torque specs on pass cars have a very wide margin of error

This is absolutely true. The owner's manual might say "80 ft/lbs" for the wheel nut torque but you can bet that the engineering design spec says "80 ft/lbs +/-XX" and "XX" is a much larger value than most people will believe ! They know that 90% of wheel nuts aren't tightened to any specific value with a torque wrench. Then you've got torque wrenches that are out of spec but still used.

 

[George Bynum]

Originally Posted by Kestas
I believe torque + angle is for stretch (TTY) bolts. Not good for multiple uses.
Our engineering department calculated the stretch desired to obtain a stress level they wanted. We torqued (these are LARGE studs) to several hundred lb-ft, then dropped heaters in the hollow studs, then used their calculated angle. (We used anti-seize in the nuts to minimize corrosion) If our 2" impact wrenches (YEAH!) couldn't break one loose, rare, we'd heat to loosen.

These studs held the 2 halves of a steam turbine casing together.

High temperature flange studs were torqued to a stress (via stretch) value. These were smaller, an not hollow.

 

[Kestas]

I recently bought a used car from a small dealer. I usually check the wheel bolts after a purchase to make sure I can remove them during a roadside flat change. I had to stand on my breaker bar, sometimes jumping up and down to loosen ALL 20 of the lug bolts! I broke one socket doing so. This suggests they were torqued to over 300 ft-lbs.

 

[Traction]

Since virtually ALL manufactures specify clean, dry threads on wheel studs, that is what I will continue to do. I feel that friction, or what is referred to as "stiction" is a big part of why it's suppose to be done this way. Up to 90% of the tightening torque is used up by friction to torque up lug nuts. If you actually reduced the torque for lubricated threads by 20% the clamp load might be correct, but not much stiction to keep the nut tight. The other problem is when someone else works on your wheels, are they going to back off their torque wrench, and state on the invoice they didn't tighten to spec?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by Excel
most torque specs on pass cars have a very wide margin of error

This is absolutely true. The owner's manual might say "80 ft/lbs" for the wheel nut torque but you can bet that the engineering design spec says "80 ft/lbs +/-XX" and "XX" is a much larger value than most people will believe ! They know that 90% of wheel nuts aren't tightened to any specific value with a torque wrench. Then you've got torque wrenches that are out of spec but still used.

I suspect that's true. And as someone else said, we're not inundated with wheels falling off. Whatever the OEM's are doing, is good enough.

I don't use anti-seize. Thought about it, but since the wheels are on and off at least twice a year on each my vehicles, it doesn't seem to have been a problem. Anti-seize to prevent sticking to the hub, yes, but not on the studs. But I don't think it'd matter.

 

[Driz]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
I posted in the other thread about Walmart doing this based on it being, apparently, their "corporate policy". If that's the case, you can be certain that they had a team of lawyers investigate this from a liability standpoint (no, I don't mean the lawyers got into mechanical calculations, etc, etc - they hire folks who deal with this stuff). If putting anti-seize on lug nuts is going to cause them to fall off and a wheel fall off, Walmart isn't going to go this route.

That's exactly what it's all about.......DEEP POCKETS and VULTURES

 

[Zolton]

TQ specs are for a new dry bolt, not an old corroded one. Adding anti-seize to the threads of a corroded bolt brings it back to the correct TQ range.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Zolton
TQ specs are for a new dry bolt, not an old corroded one. Adding anti-seize to the threads of a corroded bolt brings it back to the correct TQ range.


You'd kind of think that if the torque for an old corroded bolt was significantly different than a new dry bolt, that would be noted in the owners manual.

 

[JoelB]

I've never torqued a lug nut in my life. Probably should, but haven't. I suppose if i ever have a wheel come off I'll reconsider.