Engine oil & CAFE program and MPG ratings

[littleant]

Just wondering if modern day engines (2015-2019) are designed (built) to use 0W20-0W30 to meet Fuel Economy standards or are engines basically the same design (and previously used 5W30) but manufacturers are using these new oil's to meet Fuel Economy standards.

Would there be greater wear using the 0W-20 over a 5W-30?

Would a UOA be the only way to tell?

I know that Ford back Spec a lot of engines from 5w-30 to 5w20 except the 4.0 modular engine (with 4 timing chains) probably because the 5w-20th was to thin.

Will we see more engine failures because of lower viscosity oils?

 

[PimTac]

Some are. Mazda SkyActiv engines were designed for 0w20 from the outset.

 

[demarpaint]

 

[ka9mnx]

My 2005 Ranger was spec'd for 5w-20 in 2002. Nothing changed, internally, to accommodate the 5w-20. Original 3.0L (1993) was designed for 5w-30. My 1993 F150 was designed for 10w-30 and was back spec'd to 5w-20.

 

[kschachn]

Here we go another thick vs. thin thread, complete with the usual misconceptions about a UOA.

A UOA will not tell you what you need to know. Only the Sequence tests that actually measure wear.

After that, the automakers have determined that the use of the thinner grades will give acceptable wear.

 

[oldhp]

How......Exactly........are engines designed to run on 0W20/5W20 oil? Metals have not changed in their expansion/shrink rates. Very smart engine builder has told me main/rod clearances are the same per crank journal OD size. Valve lash settings are still basically the same as before. Engines still have the same parts that a engine had 20/30 years ago. The only 3 things that I see now are turbos, MDS and VVT systems being used more, but really could all be run with 5W30 oil. My 2012 RAM 1500 5.7 MDS ran perfect on 5W30 instead of 5W20 so that's a done argument for me.

I would be the first to agree that there are millions of engines using 5W20. But if that same engine is in Europe or Australia for example, they use anything from 5W20 to 15W40 in them. Texas in summer is just as hot as Australia is.

NOT trying to start a war here..............I know how it goes. I want "fact" not opinion.

Here we go>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Snagglefoot]

Ford started specifying 5w20 engine oil 18 years ago. You can check to see what the results are. I'm thinking most of the cars that made it to the wreckers were for other reasons rather than oil related engine failures.

 

[PimTac]

🚤🎣

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by littleant
Just wondering if modern day engines (2015-2019) are designed (built) to use 0W20-0W30 to meet Fuel Economy standards or are engines basically the same design (and previously used 5W30) but manufacturers are using these new oil's to meet Fuel Economy standards.

Would there be greater wear using the 0W-20 over a 5W-30?

Would a UOA be the only way to tell?

I know that Ford back Spec a lot of engines from 5w-30 to 5w20 except the 4.0 modular engine (with 4 timing chains) probably because the 5w-20th was to thin.

Will we see more engine failures because of lower viscosity oils?


It is at least a maybe, will some of the hemi's that continue to fail with 5w20 maybe not have with 5w30? Maybe. When fca changed the oil spec in the eco diesel to a heavier grade to protect the engine better fue to massive number of failed bearings, did this save some of those trucks? At least a maybe? When FCA spec'd a 40 weight for the 6.4 instead of a twenty weight or even 30 weight in other hemi's did that save some of those from the same fate at thier sister engines? maybe? Well maybe is all I need, it's my equipment, I do realize the oil pump is the almightly equalizer and the actual difference is but one psi of oil pressure, but I still opt for maybe it will give me a bit more protection. I tell ya the rav 4 went from being a rattle trap to running butter smooth just by using 5w30 PUP over 5w20 m1 and 5w20 redline, the hemi went silent by running 5w30 redline instead of tick tick tick. Something reproduced by well over 50 ram forum members. Seams like maybe is a pretty good hand of cards to play sometimes.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Ford started specifying 5w20 engine oil 18 years ago. You can check to see what the results are. I'm thinking most of the cars that made it to the wreckers were for other reasons rather than oil related engine failures.

What would be interesting to know is, of those engines still on the road... how many are still using the same 5w20 10yrs later? If I had to guess, few. But who knows... maybe I'm wrong.

10yrs ago I started my engine out on 5/30 and it still uses 5/30 and has the OE timing chain, pretty much the same mpgs and doesn't use a lick of oil at least not that I can tell by my calibrated eye on the dipstick....

 

[4WD]

Just guessing Ford Fusions stayed there more often than F150's did …

 

[chainblu]

35 or so years ago, the old schoolers were grinding their teeth and pulling their hair about going to 5w30 (per CAFE), saying that the roads would soon be clogged with dead and dying vehicles due to this 'thin' oil.

In 2001, the next generation of mechanics were saying the same thing about 5w20.

It just hasn't happened. I personally know of many cars and trucks that have over 300,000 miles on nothing but 5w20.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Just guessing Ford Fusions stayed there more often than F150's did …

Right... how many of those Fusion's are towing, up a grade WOT?

 

[Cujet]

As always, it's not just viscosity that matters. Choose a quality oil and change it frequently if you want to ensure good results.

Some engines will last with the most minor of care. Some will not. I've been unable to guess which new engines need what. So I change at the severe service schedule or 5000 miles.

The good news is that we now have a good list of yesterday's engines that have known oil related issues. Only a few failures are viscosity related.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Engine rod and main bearing clearances have been basically the same for decades, and are the same in all the same engines sold all around the world. Yet, in those other countries they spec all kinds of thicker oil viscosities than xW-20. US automakers agreed a long time ago to agree to specify thinner oils (and to only say use those in the ower's manual) to abide by CAFE requirements.

 

[Stickygreen]

I've tried all kinds of engine oils on my 2008 4.7 6spd Ram, trying to figure out what oil was best (spec is 5w20 but I expected it needed thicker oil). Truck has had the ever-loving crap beat out of it for 375k miles (currently parked bc fatigue crack in front spindle). Constant high RPM's, hard cornering when reasonably safe, and heel-toe downshifted at every opportunity. 8k mile OCI's as a farm/work truck in mild-to-scorching hot weather in summer

First 80-100k was on mostly M1 0w20 afe
Then several changes on German Castrol 0w30
Then several changes on M1 0w40
After this used pretty much every name brand/non boutique full synthetic (PP, PUP, M1, syntec, Edge, MaxLife, etc) in many different weights from 0w20 to 10w40 HM. Here's what I figured out:

-only oil that made my valvetrain louder was PP 5w20
-truck didn't like M1 oil filters...got a bit ticky
-ran smoothest/quietest (by a small margin) on PUP 5w30, M1 10w30 HM, M1 0w40, and German Castrol
-felt slightly more sluggish in warmer weather with the heavier weight oils, most noticeable with German Castrol

So what does this all mean? Absolutely nothing...all subjective and engine was replaced under lifetime powertrain warranty at over 300k due to slight oil consumption, worn rockers/cams, and partially collapsed valve springs, even though it ran about as strong as ever.

So is thicker oil better? Perhaps for a track car that sees sustained high oil temps...but with my heavily abused OHC v8 truck, it really didn't seem to matter. For all practical purposes was just as happy on M1 0w20 afe as it was on the 10w40 HM.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Stickygreen

First 80-100k was on mostly M1 0w20 afe

So what does this all mean? Absolutely nothing...all subjective and engine was replaced under lifetime powertrain warranty at over 300k due to slight oil consumption, worn rockers/cams, and partially collapsed valve springs, even though it ran about as strong as ever.


Maybe it was that first 100K miles on 0W-20 that wore it out ... LoL (j/k).

I'm surprised they replaced it under warranty ... but good deal for you.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Stickygreen
I've tried all kinds of engine oils on my 2008 4.7 6spd Ram, trying to figure out what oil was best (spec is 5w20 but I expected it needed thicker oil). Truck has had the ever-loving crap beat out of it for 375k miles (currently parked bc fatigue crack in front spindle). Constant high RPM's, hard cornering when reasonably safe, and heel-toe downshifted at every opportunity. 8k mile OCI's as a farm/work truck in mild-to-scorching hot weather in summer

First 80-100k was on mostly M1 0w20 afe
Then several changes on German Castrol 0w30
Then several changes on M1 0w40
After this used pretty much every name brand/non boutique full synthetic (PP, PUP, M1, syntec, Edge, MaxLife, etc) in many different weights from 0w20 to 10w40 HM. Here's what I figured out:

-only oil that made my valvetrain louder was PP 5w20
-truck didn't like M1 oil filters...got a bit ticky
-ran smoothest/quietest (by a small margin) on PUP 5w30, M1 10w30 HM, M1 0w40, and German Castrol
-felt slightly more sluggish in warmer weather with the heavier weight oils, most noticeable with German Castrol

So what does this all mean? Absolutely nothing...all subjective and engine was replaced under lifetime powertrain warranty at over 300k due to slight oil consumption, worn rockers/cams, and partially collapsed valve springs, even though it ran about as strong as ever.

So is thicker oil better? Perhaps for a track car that sees sustained high oil temps...but with my heavily abused OHC v8 truck, it really didn't seem to matter. For all practical purposes was just as happy on M1 0w20 afe as it was on the 10w40 HM.

But you said it had the loudest VT noise on a 5/20 lube and ran quietest on a Xw30??🤔 .. and valve train wear was one of the reasons the engine was replaced.🤔.. and all those areas you cited as failing are areas where maintaining a sufficiently thick oil film is critical to prevent metal to metal contact. And we know MOFT is directly related to viscosity, soooo...🤔

 

[littleant]

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Thanks for the input guys.