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Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5206227 09/06/19 12:03 PM
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sunruh Offline
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JP
finally got to read the report after the info stripped and i could make it bigger than 4pt font

i've been hearing the whole ester "super cleans and thats why the report is bad" banter for 2 decades now.
but how come after many oci's with ester it doesnt ever improve?

you only had 1100mi on this oci. not much at all
high alum, iron, nickel, lead, silicon
bad air filter/air leak could cause all that

that copper and iron at just 1100mi could be looking at almost triple digits by 2500mi depending if it accelerates or not with used oil. or you have a sloppy bushing in the tranny thats letting the gearset move causing the added wear.

motul 300v is an awesome oil...i dont much like the 0w40 spread you used.
however, that 385 flash shows more fuel than just TR. my voa shows it should be 430 plus range
and my flash of 385 (430voa) on motul 10w50 showed 1.0% fuel so the stoners cant even keep their story straight.
and thats more than likely why your susvis shows 30wt

dont look at this fine oil.
look at what it is telling you that the rest of the motor has issues

steve


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Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: sunruh] #5206591 09/06/19 07:22 PM
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Bonz Offline
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Something else I have read is ester oil leeches lead out of the bearings and can cause high lead readings that way. Don't see that here though.

I think a ZX12R has an oil cooler, could be copper from that since it's a relatively low mile engine?

ZRX 1200 and ZZR 1200 cams from that same era had big issues with pitting because of poor casting. That can up the iron count in the oil. Is there any known issue with a ZX12R cams that has been noted by owners? Just thinking out loud on the iron.




Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: sunruh] #5207376 09/07/19 09:34 PM
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JPowell490 Offline OP
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Steve,

Appreciate your feedback. Actually it is 10w40 300v, they made a typo.

The engine runs like a dream, doesn't smoke, no noise, etc. I have the same oil in this time with about 1300 miles on it.

If not the Motul 300v, what do you suggest. This is a high reving, 200 hp engine that need a great oil. Do you recommend the Mobil 10w40 4t or something else?

Again thanks for the feedback. Let me know asap Steve so I can get this out of there if it isn't the right thing.

Bonz,

The only issues with cams I ever heard were when people removed them from the engine, If not loosened properly, they can break.

However, so will BMW engines on cams as well.

The oil cooler is very small and the oil filter screws on it. I don't think anything is coming from it.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5208747 09/09/19 08:21 PM
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Yeah that is a beast of a motor, more than one land speed bike has been made from it and are still going strong.

I think you are simply getting stuff out of there on a low mileage almost 20 year old bike after that first change. I suspect this analysis should show better. At the first change the oil had plenty of TBN left, I would let that be my guide.

With respect, I have not found empirical data showing leaving this oil in for 3,000 or more miles is causing a problem. Motul does make a recommendation of shorter oil changes, but they never say a definitive statement of the empirical reasoning behind it. The base ester oil and additive package are not at question, top notch.

Here is a thread showing the oil for a longer oci, around 3,500 miles, and has a good TBN. Your TBN was high as well.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3481549/Motul_300V_10W40_double_ester,

I can highly recommend Mobil 1 10w 40 4T. Superb in my ZRX over a 5,000 mile oci. Otherwise 300v is going to serve you very well IMO.

Would be interested what Steve has to say about why the Motul 300V oil should be changed at a shorter interval given the analysis at the start of this thread. The wear metals are high, I think it's getting things re-acclimated inside the engine, but like I stated, TBN is looking good for a much longer oci.


Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5209543 09/10/19 07:41 PM
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JPowell490 Offline OP
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Thanks for the info bonz,

I am sending the second sample tomorrow priority mail.

I think you are right on about the left over from sitting a long time. I was thinking if going with Amsoil or Mobil, but went with the 300v again arriving tomorrow.

The bike loves it and I will stick with it. I will post the second analysis when I get it.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5209593 09/10/19 08:29 PM
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Bonz Offline
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I reread your first post, was it a Kawasaki recommended 2,000 mile break in procedure?

Nikasil is tough and hard, I installed JE high-compression pistons and rings about 10,000 miles ago. Before that I had installed ZZR 1200 pistons and rings (11.0:1 CR with base gasket removed). A simple wipe-down of the cylinder walls with scotchbrite removed the dull gray micro wear material in the crosshatch and the crosshatch was factory new. The cylinder bores in every dimension spec'd smack dab in the middle of factory specs. Both times I've simply installed rings with the pistons and they've sealed up fine.

Point being, I take it out and run it up and down the rev range within the first 5 miles once it's warmed up and don't let the idle drop below 2000 RPM at initial startup. Keep on riding for as many miles as I feel like, taking it up the RPM scale and letting it brake back down then taking it back up, always keeping the rings under a load from acceleration or engine braking. I do keep the initial rides to 20 or 30 miles, letting it cool down fully and then taking it out again the next day. I think a few heat cycles is a good thing early on, but I do believe everything has seated and mated within the first few miles after startup.

Not a drop of oil consumption in over 10,000 miles with the recent pistons/rings over the past two riding seasons.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: Bonz] #5210046 09/11/19 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonz
Something else I have read is ester oil leeches lead out of the bearings and can cause high lead readings that way.



if the motor only has roller bearings (not saying this one does, but my own) explain were the lead comes from then?


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Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5210057 09/11/19 11:45 AM
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sorry i had not been on to respond.

the OP sent me an email and explained the bikes situation a lot better.

i think having a bike covered dirt n grime is never a good start
even more so if a k&n filter is used (and dried out)
that is probably where the high silicon is coming from
and that in turn can cause the rest.

i would address the air filters 1st
no reason to do anything else until thats done
i, personally, dont give a flying rat about tbn on a non-touring bike.
i let my left foot determine when the oil is done.

motul 300v 10w40 is a great oil (glad it was a typo and not 0w40) but still 10w40s break down fast
the vii's just cant live in a shared sump. the tranny just chews it up. now motul 300v is one of the best
at staying i grade, but still 5k miles is probably a dream and not reality
the question is...do you care about what grade the oil is in at the oci?
most of us dont. what you really care about is shift quality.

im all about bang vs buck on shift quality
if a $15oci last 2k miles and a $40oci lasts 3k miles
which are you going to pick if a stoner report shows the same wear or less with the 2k oci?

i cant wait to see this next report

steve


motorcycle oil myth buster
Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: sunruh] #5210416 09/11/19 07:15 PM
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A year ago I posted my M1 10w40 4T analysis. It had barely sheared below 40 weight at almost 5,000 miles in the ZRX 1200. The ZRX as I have it modified makes about a 145-150 hp is at the rear wheel and 87 ft/lbs. Not a ZX12R, but should show little difference in the way it treats the oil.

And 4T 10w40 starts out as a very light/thin 40w to begin with at 13.4 cSt. Motul 10w40 starts at 13.1 cSt I think? The reality with the full or high ester oils is that the base is good enough and doesn't need as much viscosity index improver to carry the load. With that, it holds up so much better than a conventional oil against shearing. At least that's how I understand it, open to correction of course.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: sunruh] #5210531 09/11/19 10:00 PM
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JPowell490 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by sunruh
sorry i had not been on to respond.

the OP sent me an email and explained the bikes situation a lot better.

i think having a bike covered dirt n grime is never a good start
even more so if a k&n filter is used (and dried out)
that is probably where the high silicon is coming from
and that in turn can cause the rest.

i would address the air filters 1st
no reason to do anything else until thats done
i, personally, dont give a flying rat about tbn on a non-touring bike.
i let my left foot determine when the oil is done.

motul 300v 10w40 is a great oil (glad it was a typo and not 0w40) but still 10w40s break down fast
the vii's just cant live in a shared sump. the tranny just chews it up. now motul 300v is one of the best
at staying i grade, but still 5k miles is probably a dream and not reality
the question is...do you care about what grade the oil is in at the oci?
most of us dont. what you really care about is shift quality.

im all about bang vs buck on shift quality
if a $15oci last 2k miles and a $40oci lasts 3k miles
which are you going to pick if a stoner report shows the same wear or less with the 2k oci?

i cant wait to see this next report

steve



Thanks for the reply Steve,

Yes, everything has been corrected and I assume this report will be much better. It has 1550 miles on the oil this go around. I am sticking it on a priority box tomorrow and sending it. As soon as I get it back I will post.

Bonz, yes the zx12r is the one Kawasaki recommended a 2000 mile break in on. It makes sense because of the hard cylinders. All a break in needs is heat cycles. Let the bike come up to operating temp, shut down, let cool completely, and repeat.

I just filled it up again today with same oil. I get a 4L jug for about $62.00, which is a great price.

Came wait to see this new report too!

Thanks again Steve and Bonz.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5211264 09/12/19 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JPowell490

Bonz, yes the zx12r is the one Kawasaki recommended a 2000 mile break in on. It makes sense because of the hard cylinders. All a break in needs is heat cycles. Let the bike come up to operating temp, shut down, let cool completely, and repeat.

.


Lots of bikes have Nikasil on the cylinder bore(s).

I think the extended break-in had more to do with the fact that an early ZX-12R test bike in the hands of the German magazine Motorrad, had a connecting rod break and punch a hole in the block. Prompting long delays of delivery of the bikes to customers (like me) who had put down a deposit when the bike was first announced. Of course there were the rampant rumors that KHI also got scared by talk of a ban of the bike in Europe, and neutered them before the bikes were delivered to customers. A shame as it never gained the fastest production bike crown it was built to wrest from the Hayabusa.

Of course the following year the Hayabusa was restricted too. Restrictions which if course were eventually circumvented by the aftermarket.

Last edited by 02SE; 09/12/19 10:10 PM.
Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5212897 09/15/19 01:04 AM
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JPowell490 Offline OP
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Yes, the 12r test bike chunked a rod because the filled it too full of oil.

The 12r was restricted and is highly debated. It was restricted with smaller velocity stacks, corked up exhaust, timing retarded, etc.

I have taken all those out of the equation. New stacks, new exhaust, etc.

These bikes were ultra rich from the factory. A tune is a must.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5213589 09/15/19 05:25 PM
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A lot like the ZRX 1200. That was a 100 horsepower restricted bike in every market, so Kawasaki did very little to give it more power when they introduced it in the states in 2001 to replace the ZRX 1100.

The ZZR 1200 was the fastest carbureted bike to exist and still is. It was based on the ZRX 1200, came out in 2002. But with downdraft heads, another half point compression, and 40 mm carbs along with hotter cams.

Even with be only a full system and jet kit, the stock internal ZRX 1200 engine is good for 130 horses and 85 foot pounds.

ZZR 1200 parts plug and play into the ZRX, I developed jetting for the adaptation of the 40 mm carbs with pods. ZZR Pistons, ZZR 40 mm carbs, ZZR cams put it in the lower 140 horsepower/87 foot pound arena. I am running JE high compression pistons, power is in the 145-147 hp range with similar max torque, just stronger down low.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5214464 09/16/19 03:02 PM
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One problem Bonz, The zx12r never had carbs.

Re: 2000 Kawasaki ninja zx12r Motul 10w40 300V [Re: JPowell490] #5214629 09/16/19 07:25 PM
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Yup, however the overall makeup is very similar in terms of that era of Kawasaki engine, thus "a lot like". The ZX12R does have shim under bucket valve train instead of rockers of the ZRX.

I wouldn't be opposed to a ZX12R, but also would love to get a ZZR 1200 and turn it into a good sport tourer. I am very familiar and good with the ZZR 40mm carbs, so hopefully can find one that someone has neglected and only needs maintenance to get running in top form again.




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