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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: tiger862] #5122645 06/01/19 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger862
I looked at these lifters you put and I can guarantee that a new set of lifters will not fix. The lifter bore is out of spec. I see lifter wear at bore so lifter is moving and binding. Your oil loss theory is interesting but I would have to remove engine and have bore fixed as well as cam journal.

Are you doing this before new lifters are installed?


Tiger862
2018 Grand Caravan
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: tiger862] #5122693 06/01/19 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger862
Originally Posted by tiger862
I looked at these lifters you put and I can guarantee that a new set of lifters will not fix. The lifter bore is out of spec. I see lifter wear at bore so lifter is moving and binding. Your oil loss theory is interesting but I would have to remove engine and have bore fixed as well as cam journal.

Are you doing this before new lifters are installed?

I can’t wait for your reply.


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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: JosephA] #5122957 06/02/19 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JosephA
Update:

The MDS Delete kit has been ordered. Only time will tell.

On a side note, GM recognizes the same issue, and has released this information. It is clear that GM seems to care about their customers and product owners. I wonder when Chrysler is going to step up and do the same. As suspected, GM also believes their AFM lifter failures are a result of oil pressure issues and likely improper AFM deactivation/reactivation timing. Here is their release:

TECHNICAL BULLETINwww.melling.comMelling Engine Parts, P.O. Box 1188, Jackson, MI 49210 GM LS AFM Deactivation LifterIssuesWehave noticed an increase in the issues surrounding the replacement of deactivation lifters in GM LS engines with Active Fuel Management or AFM. After installing new lifters the original issuemay not have been corrected. Most lifters returned for analysis are found to be good. We have found that most lifter faultsare caused by oil pressure issues, or control issues.The AFM activation and deactivation is controlled by the Valve Lifter Oil Manifold or VLOM. The VLOM consists of 4 electronically operated solenoids and is bolted to the top of the engine block beneath the intake manifold assembly. Its job is to direct the flow of pressurized engine oil to the active fuel management intake and exhaust valve lifters. VLOM applies pressurized oil to the AFM lifters when cylinder deactivation is requested, and shuts off that supply of oil to reactivate those cylinders. Cylinder activation and deactivation are both supposed to occur on the base circle of the cam lobe, making the transition from four to eight cylinder mode unnoticeable to the driver. To control contamination a small replaceable oil filter is located in the VLOM inletoil passageway. The AFM oil pressure relief valve regulates the oil supplied to the VLOM and is located in the oil pan near the oil filter housing. The AFM system has an operating range from 27 PSI to 66 PSI of oil pressure. At higher engine speeds the high side of this operating range is controlled by the AFM oilpressure relief valve. At low enginespeeds the low side of the operating range will depend on the engines ability to produce oil pressureusing the flow of oil from the oil pump.The AFM lifter bores in these engines have a spec of .843-.844, and the deactivation lifters require 22 PSI of pressure to release the locking pins. Taking these two things into consideration a lifter bore that is even slightly worn could bleed off enough oil pressure to prevent the lifter from unlocking.In addition it has been reported that it is common to find the VLOM oil filter plugged and needing replacement on high mileage engineswith miss-fire fault codes. Melling has received AFM DEAC lifters back for warranty claims where the lifter has been stuck compressed, this condition can be caused by the VLOM commanding activation or deactivation at the wrong point in the cam’s rotation, either in the ramp, or at the lobe peak.Any time an engine has failed AFM lifters the lifter guides must be replaced, the lifter bores must be measured, and the VLOM must also be tested for proper operation, or replaced.In addition the VLOM oil filter must be replaced as well.

What say you Chrysler? Still blaming the lifter failures on bad batch's or customer neglect?

Joe


That quote is from Melling, not GM, FWIW:
https://www.melling.com/wp-content/...-Deactivation-Lifter-Issues-3.1.18-1.pdf

Seems consistent with what we are discussing here for the most part, though I'm not sure if Chrysler uses a screen to block contamination from the MDS passages. If there is one, you'll likely discover it during your repair. I could certainly see the activation of the system while on the ramp could be problematic, though on the Chrysler setup, with the location of the orifice that feeds the MDS port, I cannot see it engaging with any significant lift as:
1. The pin should not be able to displace with significant pressure on it, so it would have to come back to, or close to, base circle before there was low enough pressure
2. The orifice needs to align with the cut-out in the lifter body where the MDS pressure port is located, which should be blocked by the lower portion of the lifter body upon any significant lift.

The oil pressure issue discussed in the linked article isn't about insufficient lifter lubrication, which was the general concern in this thread, it was insufficient engine oil pressure to cause the MDS lifters to operate properly, which could be due to:
a. Worn lifter bores, bleeding off too much pressure so the pin stays locked
b. Worn engine, resulting in insufficient global pressure so the pin stays locked
c. Plugged or partially plugged AFM screen preventing sufficient pressure from reaching the lifters, so the pin stays locked

I think the TSB is generally good advice though.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OVERKILL] #5128070 06/07/19 05:13 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by JosephA
Update:

The MDS Delete kit has been ordered. Only time will tell.

On a side note, GM recognizes the same issue, and has released this information. It is clear that GM seems to care about their customers and product owners. I wonder when Chrysler is going to step up and do the same. As suspected, GM also believes their AFM lifter failures are a result of oil pressure issues and likely improper AFM deactivation/reactivation timing. Here is their release:

TECHNICAL BULLETINwww.melling.comMelling Engine Parts, P.O. Box 1188, Jackson, MI 49210 GM LS AFM Deactivation LifterIssuesWehave noticed an increase in the issues surrounding the replacement of deactivation lifters in GM LS engines with Active Fuel Management or AFM. After installing new lifters the original issuemay not have been corrected. Most lifters returned for analysis are found to be good. We have found that most lifter faultsare caused by oil pressure issues, or control issues.The AFM activation and deactivation is controlled by the Valve Lifter Oil Manifold or VLOM. The VLOM consists of 4 electronically operated solenoids and is bolted to the top of the engine block beneath the intake manifold assembly. Its job is to direct the flow of pressurized engine oil to the active fuel management intake and exhaust valve lifters. VLOM applies pressurized oil to the AFM lifters when cylinder deactivation is requested, and shuts off that supply of oil to reactivate those cylinders. Cylinder activation and deactivation are both supposed to occur on the base circle of the cam lobe, making the transition from four to eight cylinder mode unnoticeable to the driver. To control contamination a small replaceable oil filter is located in the VLOM inletoil passageway. The AFM oil pressure relief valve regulates the oil supplied to the VLOM and is located in the oil pan near the oil filter housing. The AFM system has an operating range from 27 PSI to 66 PSI of oil pressure. At higher engine speeds the high side of this operating range is controlled by the AFM oilpressure relief valve. At low enginespeeds the low side of the operating range will depend on the engines ability to produce oil pressureusing the flow of oil from the oil pump.The AFM lifter bores in these engines have a spec of .843-.844, and the deactivation lifters require 22 PSI of pressure to release the locking pins. Taking these two things into consideration a lifter bore that is even slightly worn could bleed off enough oil pressure to prevent the lifter from unlocking.In addition it has been reported that it is common to find the VLOM oil filter plugged and needing replacement on high mileage engineswith miss-fire fault codes. Melling has received AFM DEAC lifters back for warranty claims where the lifter has been stuck compressed, this condition can be caused by the VLOM commanding activation or deactivation at the wrong point in the cam’s rotation, either in the ramp, or at the lobe peak.Any time an engine has failed AFM lifters the lifter guides must be replaced, the lifter bores must be measured, and the VLOM must also be tested for proper operation, or replaced.In addition the VLOM oil filter must be replaced as well.

What say you Chrysler? Still blaming the lifter failures on bad batch's or customer neglect?

Joe


That quote is from Melling, not GM, FWIW:
https://www.melling.com/wp-content/...-Deactivation-Lifter-Issues-3.1.18-1.pdf

Seems consistent with what we are discussing here for the most part, though I'm not sure if Chrysler uses a screen to block contamination from the MDS passages. If there is one, you'll likely discover it during your repair. I could certainly see the activation of the system while on the ramp could be problematic, though on the Chrysler setup, with the location of the orifice that feeds the MDS port, I cannot see it engaging with any significant lift as:
1. The pin should not be able to displace with significant pressure on it, so it would have to come back to, or close to, base circle before there was low enough pressure
2. The orifice needs to align with the cut-out in the lifter body where the MDS pressure port is located, which should be blocked by the lower portion of the lifter body upon any significant lift.

The oil pressure issue discussed in the linked article isn't about insufficient lifter lubrication, which was the general concern in this thread, it was insufficient engine oil pressure to cause the MDS lifters to operate properly, which could be due to:
a. Worn lifter bores, bleeding off too much pressure so the pin stays locked
b. Worn engine, resulting in insufficient global pressure so the pin stays locked
c. Plugged or partially plugged AFM screen preventing sufficient pressure from reaching the lifters, so the pin stays locked

I think the TSB is generally good advice though.


No matter how you look at it, it all comes down to simply thought. Did Hemi engines suffer catastrophic lifter failure prior to MDS? As I've stated before, the answer is no. They have valve seat issues which was easily corrected with proper machining.

In the same way, did GM have lifter failure prior to the AFM system? The answer is no; the LS engines are a fantastic design despite a short history of initial piston slap issues due to excessive gaping between the rings and the cylinder bore. Both the early Hemi engines and the LS engines were great products. But as soon as both decided to again try cylinder deactivation technology, we are again seeing lifter destruction. Catalack tried this in the 1980's and suffered engine problems then.

The solution is simple. Delete MDS and the problem is solved. While there may have been a few Hellcat engines suffering lifter failure, the problem in my opinion is incorrect lubrication for an engine with such high horse power. You can't build a high performance engine using non-weighted engine oil. Could you imagine what would happen to dragsters if they ran their engines on 00-20 non-weighted oil? BOOOOM!

The problem is oil...contributing to early failure of weak design lifters, which in turn wipes out the cam lobes.

Dump MDS and AFM, go back to standard/traditional engine oil, and the problem is solved. Who gives a crap about the EPA's CAFE standards. I didn't buy the truck to save gas; I bought it do hall trailers and horses. And you can't do that driving a 6 cylinder Japanese engine.

The lifter bore is not the cause of the issue or all of them would be failing. It is possible the cam journals might have been damaged, but I believe I caught the problem early enough so as to avoid major engine damage.

I installed the cam and lifters 2 days ago. But I freaking forgot to drill out the two broken bolts on the driver side head. So now I have to remove the head again to drill out the stuck bolts and tap-die the hole.

The ultimate goal of course is to fix the truck, and dump it; let it become someone else's problem. Rest assured, I will never buy another Dodge product again....NEVER. I've been hosed by that creepy company twice before despite religious oil changes and proper maintenance. You just can't win owning a Dodge. I'm sticking with the more dependable Toyota's and Honda's; at least they honor their warranty unlike Chrysler.

Joe

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5128170 06/07/19 09:23 PM
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tiger862 Offline
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So you have 114k miles and this is Dodge's problem? You had it in at 90k then you stated they did something shady to get you pass warranty. WOW is all I have to say. I don't know any dealer that would repair one that is out of warranty by 14k miles unless there was a recall. When you had 104k you decided not to carry it in since it had just been in and noise came back but to drive until complete failure at 114k. Maybe just maybe you could have it gotten it covered if you brought it back telling them noise is still there then let them diagnose. If they were to state your sol call corporation let them know and see if they could help. You will never know. Now you are going to dump it on someone else. I hope you tell them you modified the truck so they know program that computer you are running as well as parts needed for maintenance or repairs when something breaks.


Tiger862
2018 Grand Caravan
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: tiger862] #5129807 06/09/19 10:28 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by tiger862
So you have 114k miles and this is Dodge's problem? You had it in at 90k then you stated they did something shady to get you pass warranty. WOW is all I have to say. I don't know any dealer that would repair one that is out of warranty by 14k miles unless there was a recall. When you had 104k you decided not to carry it in since it had just been in and noise came back but to drive until complete failure at 114k. Maybe just maybe you could have it gotten it covered if you brought it back telling them noise is still there then let them diagnose. If they were to state your sol call corporation let them know and see if they could help. You will never know. Now you are going to dump it on someone else. I hope you tell them you modified the truck so they know program that computer you are running as well as parts needed for maintenance or repairs when something breaks.


It was Dodge's problem for not fixing the problem when it was brought to them at 94,000 miles. I don't know what they did, but I have a friend who works for Toyota in Atlanta, and he deals with warranty departments all of the time. Now this is just a suggestion from his part, but his speculation made sense to me. He suspects that the warranty department refused to cover the needed repairs on my truck because the local Chrysler Dealership obviously failed to service vehicles with the recommended oil. In my case, 0-20 was supposed to be used, but they are using 5W-20 bulk oil; a rather cheap grade of oil. So he suspects the warranty department refused to cover it, and instead told the dealership that they would be the responsible party since they were the likely cause of premature failure. While this cannot be proven by me nor my buddy in Atlanta, what he stated makes sense considering the local dealership in my town lost their five-star rating for corruption and unethical sales tactics. They have the worst service department in my town, and likely in my State.

Getting back to my circumstance, the truck should have been repaired correctly while it was under warranty. It apparently wasn't. And for some ungodly reason, I was charged OUT OF POCKET $988 bucks for 16 spark plugs and a fuel system flush. Yet their own advertisement board displayed a full tuneup for just over $200 bucks. So why was I charged so much, especially considering the fact that the problem returned close to 10,000 miles later, only this time it was nearly catastrophic? My buddy suggested that they lied to be about the tuneup in order to hide the lifter problem from me (and likely others whom also experienced the same problem as I) and needed to cover the cost of parts (lifter(s), gaskets, and labor to pay the mechanic). Now I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but as I've stated, it all makes sense. There's no way a tuneup and fuel flush should cost nearly $1,000 bucks.

And I am pretty certain that my upgrade will last a [censored] of a lot longer than the stock repair. I've installed a custom cam with a diablosport tune, and she's up and running. I started her up and she instantly prrrr'd like a kitten. And no hemi tick; no knocking; no clattering; just as quiet as an engine should be. Time will tell of course, but we've decided to keep it now that I've gained a lot more knowledge of this engine; a rather simple engine to work on I might add. In fact, I am thinking of searching for a RAM for myself (this one belongs to my wife). I could easily find someone who might be wanting to dump their hemi-tick RAM; I'll buy it cheap, upgrade the engine with a nice tune, and enjoy a nice powerful truck. We use it for towing horse trailers so we needed the power. I'd much prefer a diesel but I'm waiting on Toyota to finally begin selling their new line of trucks with the Cummin's diesel engine. I'm told it should be out sometime around or after 2020. Here's to hoping.

And for the record, I am using 5W-30 Full Synthetic Mobile 1 engine oil and my Hemi loves it. I also performed an idle test with the passenger side (bank 2) valve cover off, and there is plenty of oil flowing atop of the head. So I know the valve train is getting plenty of good quality lubrication. After all, with a 400+ HP engine, using a weighted engine oil is a must. The idiot(s) that decided to use 00-20 engine oil on a high output engine should be hung, in my personal opinion. That was a very stupid decision, EPA standards notwithstanding. If people want to save money on fuel, then buy a Toyota, Honda, or even a Ford Fusion; they make some really great cars. I can't say that for Chrysler, and lately even GM. Seems like GM is starting to slip some.

She's running great guys. Right now I have her tuned for economy. But when ever we have to pull, she'll get re-tuned for heavy towing. I'm certain she will last a bit longer than the crap the stealership pulled on me. Let the record show that I've lost 2 prior Dodge's from that stealership after their poor maintenance. A 1997 Dodge Stratus that seized months after a head gasket failure/replacement; and a 2002 Dodge Stratus R/T 8 months after they replaced the water pump, which failed again and destroyed the timing chain.

Finally, if I did sell the truck, unlike Chrysler and their service reps, I would be honest and tell them everything that was done to the truck. [censored] they'd probably thank me for it. I've got 3 friends all wanting me to repair there's now. And I'm all for it. It makes no sense for the stealership's to be charging $5,000 to $7,000 bucks for a silly camshaft and lifter replacement. I could do it in 2 days or less if I had the parts. Tt took me 2 months to get mine fixed due to awaiting parts and conducting thorough research. I'm totally convinced the problem is directly/mostly related to MDS operation (as with GM SUV's and Trucks), and insufficient lubrication for a hard-working engine. 0-20 or 5W-20 are both insufficient. To anyone else out there who might be reading this post and would like to know which oil to use, don't waste your money on Redline..not worth the cost for a mere name. Use 5W-30 or 5W-40 Mobile 1 Full Synthetic oil. This only applies to those who wisely deleted their MDS system with a non-MDS cam and lifters, as well as a tune. If you Hemi still has the MDS, you can deactivate it with a tuner. But you are better off dumping the MDS all together and enjoying the full potential of an 8 cylinder Hemi. Besides, MDS doesn't save you enough money since it's maintenance/repair cost exceeds (by a large amount) the minute fuel savings.

Joe

Last edited by JosephA; 06/09/19 10:41 PM.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: JosephA] #5210167 09/11/19 02:10 PM
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Whitestar Offline
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Joe, did your truck experience the lifter clatter on cold startups like mine?

Last edited by Whitestar; 09/11/19 02:11 PM.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: Whitestar] #5210173 09/11/19 02:18 PM
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demarpaint Offline
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Originally Posted by Whitestar
Joe, did your truck experience the lifter clatter on cold startups like mine?

I hear a lot of cars from various brands making the same noises on a cold start. Discouraging but not uncommon.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: demarpaint] #5210225 09/11/19 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by Whitestar
Joe, did your truck experience the lifter clatter on cold startups like mine?

I hear a lot of cars from various brands making the same noises on a cold start. Discouraging but not uncommon.


I've never had that issue except once. I was parked at a slope where the passenger side was higher than the drivers side.


2018 RAM 1500 SLT 5.7L
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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: GumbyJarvis] #5210235 09/11/19 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis

I've never had that issue except once. I was parked at a slope where the passenger side was higher than the drivers side.

Interesting observation. Like I said I've heard quite a few newer vehicles that make that same noise. I'll hear it not quite as pronounced in my 3.6L Pentastar, but it would have to be sitting a few weeks w/o being driven in order to make that noise. Then the noise will last 1-2 seconds at most.

The lifters do leak down, which they claim causes the noise and it is supposed to be "normal." I guess "normal" can mean a lot of things.


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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5210461 09/11/19 08:15 PM
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The main thing I have seen on Hemi is the ones who use conventional oil and do regular oil changes according to severe duty don't have problems. The main culprit seems to be Synthetic oil changes according to OLM. Can't say it's the oil or extended oil changes but if anything like the Chevy small block from the ninety's the spring pressure was to low and allowed the roller to slide instead of roll causing cam damage and bearings in lifters to fail. Just an opinion


Tiger862
2018 Grand Caravan
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: tiger862] #5210507 09/11/19 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger862
The main thing I have seen on Hemi is the ones who use conventional oil and do regular oil changes according to severe duty don't have problems. The main culprit seems to be Synthetic oil changes according to OLM. Can't say it's the oil or extended oil changes but if anything like the Chevy small block from the ninety's the spring pressure was to low and allowed the roller to slide instead of roll causing cam damage and bearings in lifters to fail. Just an opinion


I’ve seen plenty eat a lifter running conventional with 4,000-5,000 mile OCI’s done at the dealership.


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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: demarpaint] #5210621 09/12/19 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis

I've never had that issue except once. I was parked at a slope where the passenger side was higher than the drivers side.

Interesting observation. Like I said I've heard quite a few newer vehicles that make that same noise. I'll hear it not quite as pronounced in my 3.6L Pentastar, but it would have to be sitting a few weeks w/o being driven in order to make that noise. Then the noise will last 1-2 seconds at most.

The lifters do leak down, which they claim causes the noise and it is supposed to be "normal." I guess "normal" can mean a lot of things.


Yup, parked at the streetside of my work, which is at an incline. 13 hours parked, cold start, about 6-8 seconds of rattle then back to normal.

This was while running Conventional Formula Shell 5w20 and a CQ Red. I havent had that issue since, but I no longer park there anymore, maybe I will and see if it's still an issue with the current fill, or whatnot. shrug

Last edited by GumbyJarvis; 09/12/19 02:25 AM.

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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: GumbyJarvis] #5210640 09/12/19 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis

I've never had that issue except once. I was parked at a slope where the passenger side was higher than the drivers side.

Interesting observation. Like I said I've heard quite a few newer vehicles that make that same noise. I'll hear it not quite as pronounced in my 3.6L Pentastar, but it would have to be sitting a few weeks w/o being driven in order to make that noise. Then the noise will last 1-2 seconds at most.

The lifters do leak down, which they claim causes the noise and it is supposed to be "normal." I guess "normal" can mean a lot of things.


Yup, parked at the streetside of my work, which is at an incline. 13 hours parked, cold start, about 6-8 seconds of rattle then back to normal.

This was while running Conventional Formula Shell 5w20 and a CQ Red. I havent had that issue since, but I no longer park there anymore, maybe I will and see if it's still an issue with the current fill, or whatnot. shrug

I've mentioned this a few times here. I have a friend who is an A-tech at a Jeep dealership. He is an excellent tech. He has handled the cam lifter failures and has worked with Sr. techs Chrysler sends out to the dealerships to troubleshoot issues. Long story short these cam lifter problems are not unique to Chrysler products, and contrary to what many on Bitog believe they feel higher ZDDP oils or tweaking the oil with ZDDP can help, yes even in engines like yours and the 3.6. They also feel moving up a grade to a 5W30 is a good idea too. The problem is they can't openly suggest using a ZDDP additive, or going against the owner's manual. I have discussed this on numerous occasions with a few highly respected members here, they agree. Having said that if a person has defective parts, nothing is going to help. Good luck!!


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