Tesla vs Porsche...

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Since VW built 11M offending vehicles enough to circle the globe if stacked end to end thats quite a bit of pollution.


OK, so then all 11 million, if driven ~1,100Km a month, produce the same as 9 container trips from China. Not ships, trips. How many container ships do you think are presently traversing that route?

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Wouldn't you agree VW isnt improving public safety? They are jeopardizing it especially if compliance would mean 10-40X less NOX.


I would say they aren't doing either. The footprint of this is so small when put into perspective that it really isn't significant. The problem is the action, not the result. Cheating the emissions standards was and is illegal and they have been rightfully held to account for that.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Since VW built 11M offending vehicles enough to circle the globe if stacked end to end thats quite a bit of pollution.


OK, so then all 11 million, if driven ~1,100Km a month, produce the same as 9 container trips from China. Not ships, trips. How many container ships do you think are presently traversing that route?

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Wouldn't you agree VW isnt improving public safety? They are jeopardizing it especially if compliance would mean 10-40X less NOX.


I would say they aren't doing either. The footprint of this is so small when put into perspective that it really isn't significant. The problem is the action, not the result. Cheating the emissions standards was and is illegal and they have been rightfully held to account for that.



I think there are something like 100K container ships globally - but they dont commute through major cities feet away from millions of people every day do they?

Change the proximity and the effect becomes much more dramatic.

Put these 9 container ships inland right next to the population vs. all over the oceans and look at the effect on public health.

Do you think emissions from the various maritimes all over the oceans affect inland air quality as much as say the 405 traffic running through LA or any major city inland? @ 379K cars per day do you think a 10-40X increase is immaterial when its mere feet from millions of people.


Does 10-40X more pollution x 11M help or hurt? The answer is pretty straightforward.







Back to the taycan vs the tesla - In comparing VW and Tesla that VW is a good company and Tesla is not?


UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
I think there are something like 100K container ships globally - but they dont commute through major cities feet away from millions of people every day do they?


I'm sure there is a percentage of them idling and operating in and around port cities every day, so those locales would be far more effected than further inland places of course.

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Change the proximity and the effect becomes much more dramatic.


Yes, I'd say the effects from both would be reasonably localized. Large port cities like San Francisco would be hit by both for example. Similar to population centres located near nickel mines, steel plants...etc.

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Put these 9 container ships inland right next to the population vs. all over the oceans and look at the effect on public health.

Well, many large population centres are located adjacent to large bodies of water (port cities) where these boats are constantly coming in and out, so I'd expect the exposure in those areas to be quite high. On the other hand, you aren't going to get much effect from them in a city like Dallas.

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Do you think emissions from the various maritimes all over the oceans affect inland air quality as much as say the 405 traffic running through LA or any major city inland?

Inland? No, since this stuff is typically pretty localized, the effects there would be more from power generation, transport trucks, factories....etc.

Originally Posted by UncleDave
@ 379K cars per day do you think a 10-40X increase is immaterial when its mere feet from millions of people.

Given the number of VW diesels on the road when compared to OTR trucks and the like, which are in the same proximity, yes, I'd still say it is relatively immaterial.


Originally Posted by UncleDave
Does 10-40X more pollution x 11M help or hurt? The answer is pretty straightforward.

Obviously it doesn't help, but is it significant when compared to everything else polluting? That's what I've been driving at, which you are obviously aware of.
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave


Heres an interesting article

(since no one has actually put up an article everyone can agree on maybe this will bring us together on the subject)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ol_Defeat_Device_on_US_Public_Health#pf8

UD


Interesting read, thanks for the share. I think this is worth noting from it:

Quote
We estimate the public health impacts and associated costs of the alleged CAA violations by VW due to defeat devices being present in model year 2009-2015 light duty diesel vehicles with 2.0 litre engines. An estimated ∼36.7 million kg of excess NOx emissions occur from 2008 to 2015. Our computed excess NOx emissions in 2015 are equivalent to ∼1% of the total light duty vehicle emissions. We estimate that ∼59 early deaths will be caused by 2008-2015 excess emissions with a monetized cost of ∼$450m. (Some of the estimated deaths caused by historical emissions have not yet occurred due to the cessation lag structure assumed.)


I've emphasized two passages above.

So the excess VW emissions account for ~1% of total light duty emissions. And deaths purported to be associated with or caused by the emissions from vehicles that were compliant under previous standards may still not have happened yet due to the inherent lag in this process. How many deaths will Cummins have legally caused during the same time period? As I said, VW broke the law, and were rightfully charged, but this really isn't huge. Yes, it was wrong of them, but even the increased emissions were well below the standards for previous generation limits.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by UncleDave


Heres an interesting article

(since no one has actually put up an article everyone can agree on maybe this will bring us together on the subject)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ol_Defeat_Device_on_US_Public_Health#pf8

UD


Interesting read, thanks for the share. I think this is worth noting from it:

Quote
We estimate the public health impacts and associated costs of the alleged CAA violations by VW due to defeat devices being present in model year 2009-2015 light duty diesel vehicles with 2.0 litre engines. An estimated ∼36.7 million kg of excess NOx emissions occur from 2008 to 2015. Our computed excess NOx emissions in 2015 are equivalent to ∼1% of the total light duty vehicle emissions. We estimate that ∼59 early deaths will be caused by 2008-2015 excess emissions with a monetized cost of ∼$450m. (Some of the estimated deaths caused by historical emissions have not yet occurred due to the cessation lag structure assumed.)


I've emphasized two passages above.

So the excess VW emissions account for ~1% of total light duty emissions. And deaths purported to be associated with or caused by the emissions from vehicles that were compliant under previous standards may still not have happened yet due to the inherent lag in this process. How many deaths will Cummins have legally caused during the same time period? As I said, VW broke the law, and were rightfully charged, but this really isn't huge. Yes, it was wrong of them, but even the increased emissions were well below the standards for previous generation limits.

Exactly.
 
So we agree based on actual data VW negatively effected pubic health/safety and can put to bed any statement of the opposite.




UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
So we agree based on actual data VW negatively effected pubic health/safety and can put to bed any statement of the opposite.




UD




Yes, just like every other manufacturer who manufactures anything also has. Just like we all do by eating and breathing.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6


Yes,


Who is worse Telsa or VW?


UD
 
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You highlighted a unique capability there - over the air updates.

Does the taycan do that?

UD
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave


You highlighted a unique capability there - over the air updates.

Does the taycan do that?

UD


...unique capability? Like...actually testing the brakes before putting the car on market? No. That's just being a responsible, sensible automotive company. I'm just highlighting why Tesla sucks. The customers beta test all of their products.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave


You highlighted a unique capability there - over the air updates.

Does the taycan do that?

UD


...unique capability? Like...actually testing the brakes before putting the car on market? No. That's just being a responsible, sensible automotive company. I'm just highlighting why Tesla sucks. The customers beta test all of their products.


Sounds like a no...for the Taycan.

You present the tesla brake issue as non -working pior and gloss over its class leading performance after an over the air update.

The e-tron had a battery water ingress recall that could start a fire - It had to go back to the dealer vs being fixed over the air.

that doesnt suck?

UD
 
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Dave, you are on a roll!
lol.gif


I know two people with the Model S and both of them love them. Personally, I wasn't that impressed by the interior fit and finish, but the ride and performance were both excellent. The E-Tron interests me because it is "more conventional" and is more like my current SUV. That, and the Model X is obscenely expensive. But there is no denying the performance that Tesla offers, nor the convenience afforded by the OTA capabilities.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Dave, you are on a roll!
lol.gif


I know two people with the Model S and both of them love them. Personally, I wasn't that impressed by the interior fit and finish, but the ride and performance were both excellent. The E-Tron interests me because it is "more conventional" and is more like my current SUV. That, and the Model X is obscenely expensive. But there is no denying the performance that Tesla offers, nor the convenience afforded by the OTA capabilities.


All these cars have merit, plusses and minuses.

I think all the teslas are a bit too spartan and devoid of useful storage areas. Simple stuff like the 3 levels in my ridgeline doors are missing from them.

They no doubt had early fit and finish issues, they claim to have gotten better but Id like to see a guy like sandy Munro tear into a later one.

The real winner here is the customer - the more choices we have the better.


UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Dave, you are on a roll!
lol.gif


I know two people with the Model S and both of them love them. Personally, I wasn't that impressed by the interior fit and finish, but the ride and performance were both excellent. The E-Tron interests me because it is "more conventional" and is more like my current SUV. That, and the Model X is obscenely expensive. But there is no denying the performance that Tesla offers, nor the convenience afforded by the OTA capabilities.


All these cars have merit, plusses and minuses.

I think all the teslas are a bit to spartan and devoid of useful storage areas.

They no doubt had early fit and finish issues, they claim to have gotten better but Id like to see a guy like sandy Munro tear into a later one.

The real winner here is the customer - the more choices we have the better.


UD



Agreed!
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave


You highlighted a unique capability there - over the air updates.

Does the taycan do that?

UD



I suspect state franchise laws prohibit that.


Originally Posted by UncleDave
Model S fastest 4 door EVER electric or not at Laguna Seca!

https://electrek.co/2019/09/11/tesla-model-s-breaks-laguna-seca-lap-records-elon-musk/

UD


Who cares when there has been only one other production car which was not a Tesla to drive this track? B F D.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


Who cares when there has been only one other production car which was not a Tesla to drive this track? B F D.


GM predicts to get to OTA in another year or two (what's that a decade after tesla? ) - I guess the franchise laws will change as others catch up.


Lots of production cars on Laguna Seca.

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988

UD
 
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