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Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: buster] #5209922 09/11/19 07:41 AM
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bluesubie Offline
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The newer DIT FA engines (100% stock) do seem to be getting along fine, in terms of uoa wear metals, on thinner oils despite the oil usually showing 2-5% fuel dilution and viscosity usually in the mid-20 grade range. The older EJ engines definitely benefit more from thicker oils more than the newer engines IMO. Having said that, Subaru Japan allows Euro 0W-30 and 5W-40 in DIT's so I wouldn't consider running thicker oils in turbo Subaru's as an imagined problem. 2cents

https://www.subaru.jp/accessory/engine_oil/lineup/premium02.html


'20 Subaru Outback Onyx XT | FF Idemitsu 0W-20
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT | Edge 0W-40
Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: Navi] #5209960 09/11/19 08:19 AM
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buster Offline
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The issue with some of the xw-40 oils is the spread. You ideally want an oil with less VII's in a fuel diluter. More VII's the greater percentage of viscosity loss as fuel dilution increases. A stout 10w30 is a nice choice for an engine that is known for diluting oil.

The Delvac 5w40 is likely a solid 40 grade choice.


2019 Frontier Pro 4X - RGT 5w30
2019 Impreza Sport - OE fill
Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: kschachn] #5209990 09/11/19 09:03 AM
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burla Offline
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


Dude is asking for help assuming he is developing a strategy for his di engines. The issues with di engines are not imagined, in fact they have been solely responsible for the entire industry moving in the same direction of low CA oils. LSPI does exist, a lubrication strategy can help it. Maybe there are plenty of other factors, but as an owner you can only do so much, why not do what is in your power to do? Amsoil's formula looks like one of the better di friendly formulas out there as far as lspi protection goes, but some di's have been known to shread oil visc, it is another valid concern about starting out thin. There are many things to consider when owning a di turbo, it is advanced ownership, and it seams like even great di formulas can improve upon themselves. Haven't seen a low CA, low noack, high viscosity, high moly oil for this yet, and a lot of the paper out there suggests this would be a good oil formula for di's. let's all just run havo in a box baby and not worry ourselves?

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: Navi] #5210031 09/11/19 10:16 AM
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Jimmy_Russells Offline
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OP should just use 5W50 Redline. You can never be too safe.

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: bluesubie] #5210050 09/11/19 10:38 AM
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jbutch Offline
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Originally Posted by bluesubie

The newer DIT FA engines (100% stock) do seem to be getting along fine, in terms of uoa wear metals, on thinner oils despite the oil usually showing 2-5% fuel dilution and viscosity usually in the mid-20 grade range. The older EJ engines definitely benefit more from thicker oils more than the newer engines IMO. Having said that, Subaru Japan allows Euro 0W-30 and 5W-40 in DIT's so I wouldn't consider running thicker oils in turbo Subaru's as an imagined problem. 2cents

https://www.subaru.jp/accessory/engine_oil/lineup/premium02.html


While I agree they are doing ok on a sheared 20 grade oil, I had better wear metals on a HDEO that stayed in the 30 grade.

While ok is good enough for most people, I like the peace of mind of running something thicker and get better wear.


2015 Forester XT @ 100k km
Current fill: Rotella T6 Multi Vehicle 5w-30 with Fram Ultra XG7317
Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: jbutch] #5210250 09/11/19 02:28 PM
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SubieRubyRoo Offline
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Originally Posted by jbutch

While I agree they are doing ok on a sheared 20 grade oil, I had better wear metals on a HDEO that stayed in the 30 grade.

While ok is good enough for most people, I like the peace of mind of running something thicker and get better wear.


As dnewton3 has stated, UOAs are not a very good indicator of actual wear. The stuff that shows up in a UOA is only the stuff that is less than ~ 7 microns, which is infinitesimally small. The only real way to measure wear would be a complete teardown and measurements with calipers and micrometers. Your engine could be suffering catastrophic wear and shedding large pieces of metal that would never show up in a UOA. To use a UOA to evaluate oils on a "better/worse" basis is a fool's errand. Long term trending is where UOAs show benefits. If iron is tracking along at 8-15ppm and next UOA jumps to 125 for example, that may be an indicator that something is amiss. But if your UOA goes from 8ppm to 15ppm, that is NOT something to freak out about!

Use your UOA to check that the viscosity remained in grade, TBN is greater than 1.0, and iron is less than 150ppm (per Doug Hillary). If any of those fail, you either need to shorten your OCI or choose a more robust oil. Other than that you're imagining perceived benefits from a test that's not designed for or capable of giving you that kind of information.

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #5210288 09/11/19 03:22 PM
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jbutch Offline
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by jbutch

While I agree they are doing ok on a sheared 20 grade oil, I had better wear metals on a HDEO that stayed in the 30 grade.

While ok is good enough for most people, I like the peace of mind of running something thicker and get better wear.


As dnewton3 has stated, UOAs are not a very good indicator of actual wear. The stuff that shows up in a UOA is only the stuff that is less than ~ 7 microns, which is infinitesimally small. The only real way to measure wear would be a complete teardown and measurements with calipers and micrometers. Your engine could be suffering catastrophic wear and shedding large pieces of metal that would never show up in a UOA. To use a UOA to evaluate oils on a "better/worse" basis is a fool's errand. Long term trending is where UOAs show benefits. If iron is tracking along at 8-15ppm and next UOA jumps to 125 for example, that may be an indicator that something is amiss. But if your UOA goes from 8ppm to 15ppm, that is NOT something to freak out about!

Use your UOA to check that the viscosity remained in grade, TBN is greater than 1.0, and iron is less than 150ppm (per Doug Hillary). If any of those fail, you either need to shorten your OCI or choose a more robust oil. Other than that you're imagining perceived benefits from a test that's not designed for or capable of giving you that kind of information.


You have some good points, but I do feel better with an oil that stays in grade and with lower wear. Might be my ocd smile

Last edited by jbutch; 09/11/19 03:22 PM.

2015 Forester XT @ 100k km
Current fill: Rotella T6 Multi Vehicle 5w-30 with Fram Ultra XG7317
Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: Navi] #5210364 09/11/19 05:28 PM
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I will add that my WRX with most of its 92K on the clock as seen the recommend 5W30. UOAs have came back fine even with the oil sheared to high 20 grade. I have a UOA out to bkackstone currently with a run of Castrol 5W40. I don't expect the numbers to change all that much.


2015 WRX FA20F
PP 5W30
Napa Gold 100078

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: FA_WRX] #5210405 09/11/19 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FA_WRX
I will add that my WRX with most of its 92K on the clock as seen the recommend 5W30. UOAs have came back fine even with the oil sheared to high 20 grade. I have a UOA out to bkackstone currently with a run of Castrol 5W40. I don't expect the numbers to change all that much.


Interested in seeing that uoa.

What oil did you put in this time?


2015 Forester XT @ 100k km
Current fill: Rotella T6 Multi Vehicle 5w-30 with Fram Ultra XG7317
Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: jbutch] #5210732 09/12/19 07:03 AM
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FA_WRX Offline
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Originally Posted by jbutch
Originally Posted by FA_WRX


Interested in seeing that uoa.

What oil did you put in this time?



Current run is 5W40 Valvoline MST.


2015 WRX FA20F
PP 5W30
Napa Gold 100078

Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: kschachn] #5211311 09/12/19 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


Exactly. A few SAE studies have shown no correlation between kinematic viscosity nor dynamic viscosity above the minimum oil film thickness needed for the application. You'd be surprised how thin that is. There's also a point where wear increases with too high of viscosity due to less flow and more friction. This thread is a prime example of the "bigger is better" mentality being wrongfully applied.


"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
Re: Amsoil 5W30 Signature Series too thin for Turbo Subaru or 450 hp Ecoboost [Re: burla] #5211316 09/12/19 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by kschachn
Sorry, but this is a thread full of imagined problems and subsequent solutions based on more imagination.


Dude is asking for help assuming he is developing a strategy for his di engines. The issues with di engines are not imagined, in fact they have been solely responsible for the entire industry moving in the same direction of low CA oils. LSPI does exist, a lubrication strategy can help it. Maybe there are plenty of other factors, but as an owner you can only do so much, why not do what is in your power to do? Amsoil's formula looks like one of the better di friendly formulas out there as far as lspi protection goes, but some di's have been known to shread oil visc, it is another valid concern about starting out thin. There are many things to consider when owning a di turbo, it is advanced ownership, and it seams like even great di formulas can improve upon themselves. Haven't seen a low CA, low noack, high viscosity, high moly oil for this yet, and a lot of the paper out there suggests this would be a good oil formula for di's. let's all just run havo in a box baby and not worry ourselves?


Driven DI40 5w-40 fits that ticket with PAO base oil, 1050 ppm Zn, 950 ppm P, 1220 ppm Ca, and 340 ppm Mo.


"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
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